Can TMS include "mental" symptoms like depersonalization, panic attacks, and anxiety?

I've had TMS before, and I thought it was "post-concussion syndrome." That was way back in 2017 or 2018 or so. From around 2018/2019 until 2023, I was pretty much cured and living it up in life. Now I'm going through hell again, but the symptoms are different.

First of all, I've done several physical tests and nothing seems to be wrong with me. Now my primary issues are panic attacks (on a near-daily basis), high anxiety, depression, depersonalization, derealization, dizziness, fatigue, and getting sick often (typically following 2 consecutive days of higher physical activity).

This all slowly came on to me over a year. Just 1-2 years ago I was intensely adventuring and living life, and now I'm at a point where I'm lucky to have 4-5 hours of calmness and enjoyment in a single day. I am severely struggling with the above, and it has gotten progressively worse. I am also under a TON of mental stress, so I'm beginning to wonder if maybe I subconsciously have been burying various issues which is causing various "explosions" of mental health crisis issues like panic attacks (effectively TMS but with more mental symptoms than physical).

I don't know... just wondering if anyone else here is struggling with this or not. I've gotten my blood drawn from what the doctor thought might be off and everything is fine now (previously low on Vitamin D/Iron/B12, but now fine), and my thyroid is fine, and there's nothing obviously physically wrong with me. I slid out on the dirt bike a couple of months ago and got a brain scan (I was wearing a helmet) just in case, and everything was fine.

So at this point it's like, 'shit what the hell is wrong with me?' And I'm turning my head back towards the possibility of this all being TMS.

However, it has all felt SO real, particularly the "getting sick often from over-exertion." Although about that, I'm not sure if that's TMS or if the TMS has caused me to spend more time indoors and NOT exercising and so I'm physically weaker and thus get sick more easily... I was DEFINITELY more fit 4 years ago than I am today. I could do more push-ups and sit-ups in between a run, whereas now I don't even do the run and it is fairly hard for me to do the push-ups, and I don't do the same number of sit-ups before as well.

So besides that, is this TMS guys? I know none of ya'll are doctors, but I'm just wondering, is there anything else I should check out? Due to the panic attacks I even asked the doctor if we should check my Heart, and she was like "yeah your Heart is fine." There's never been an issue with that really, but panic attacks sure feel terrifying around the chest area.

Also, now I'm so deep in it that "not feeling awful" is even a win at this fucking point!!! It's not even like I feel "good" sometimes, though those moments DO come albeit briefly. So identifying triggers is a lot harder. It's not like I'm going from "good" to "bad," I'm alternating between different levels of bad. Maybe I should get a journal and start checking it again.

Anyways, anything else I should check in my blood or body? Or should I go ahead with TMS treatment?

And what about "getting sick often?" I never get worse than a runny nose, dry cough if the runny nose is real bad, and fatigue and headache.. So I'm even beginning to question that. At the same time, THAT strictly follows 2 intense days of physical exertion, so I don't know if that's TMS or not... Back to the original point of that maybe I physically have gotten a ton weaker since developing TMS.

Oh... One final thing. I might have PTSD as well and extremely high stress from that. In 2023, I went through a pretty terrifying situation. Water surge incident in a cave. Basically thought for a few minutes that we were gonna drown to death, and then after a few minutes we realized we weren't gonna drown, but instead maybe be stuck in the cave like those kids in the Thai cave rescue. We managed to self-rescue in the end, but it was incredibly terrifying in every minute and every second, we had to go through a dangerous area where we weren't sure if a water surge was gonna come again and THEN drown us.

Anyways, the first and most terrifying panic attack came about a month after that, maybe less. Does the TMS personality ignore their own trauma and pack it so deeply that you don't even realize you are that traumatized? I mean, I know my experience "was traumatizing," but was it that bad? I wasn't in war or anything. I never killed anyone or watched people die. We all made it out alive. I've been able to tell a legendary story since then. On the other hand, what if it's packed up inside of me, among other stressors, causing panic attacks?

It's almost as if that first intense hour of panic has opened demons inside of me. I've never struggled with panic attacks before. A bit of anxiety, sure, but I could fight through it. But PANIC, the kind where you're like "I'm going to die!!!" I've never felt that so regularly before...

I never cried when I told the story to anyone. I always told it positively and confidently. I don't intend to come across as super brave, but I don't cry in the moment. I say in my voice that I was terrified, because I was, but I don't cry. I'm wondering though- should I?

I'm sorry for the ramble, but this is coming to mind because 2 days ago at a small BBQ I told this story and I actually looked deeper into the faces of people I was telling this story to, and I realized that they were almost filled with panic and horror just in my telling of the story. I'm beginning to wonder if I actually do have PTSD, but my friendly, positive, optimistic spirit has packed up that trauma and repackaged it into a happy hero's story, when in reality I was scared shitless of drowning to death in that fucking nightmare, and what we had to do to self-rescue was equally as terrifying, if not more.

The first panic attack happened on the side of a mountain, as I stood and enjoyed an incredible view. As it is on a mountain, there was a small background sound of the hustle of cars in the distance and the wind in the valley. The wind in the valley sounds like a water surge far away. I completely denied for weeks that it could be a panic attack, and was insistent that it must've been my Vitamin D deficiency or low electrolytes that caused my collapse and inability to breathe and tingling arms and legs and feeling of impending doom. Now I'm beginning to wonder if my subconscious brain heard that drone of the wind, and sent me into a panic.

On that day in that moment, we were helpless. I say that we "self-rescued" but there's no honor in that, we were just fucking lucky, and nothing else. We made a STUPID decision to go into that cave and go into that part of the cave on that day, and disregarded what are now obvious signs. I guess no one ever teaches you the specific signs to look out for in terms of water risk in a cave, such as rocks that are too clean and leaves and whatnot littering the path. Once we were in that area of that cave, it was pure luck that we were able to leave safely. There was nothing specific that we could've done after the situation had started to improve our circumstances. And maybe that's why I've got PTSD. There was no "fight or flight," just panic and wait it out.

But then of course we had to find a way out of the cave, and by luck the way out wasn't flooded (the water flowed out). There are more details, but I guess ya'll get the point. If you read to here, thanks for listening, I'm sorry for rambling.

I'm really beginning to consider that maybe this is just all TMS. That the "fatigue," the dizziness, the anxiety, the depression, all of it is just PTSD packaged in a friendly, optimistic, agree-able guys' way of "not bogging the group down." I don't know if anyone has seen me cry from that day, but I have several times. I also cry because one of my most awesome hobbies feels "ruined." Even in "dry season" where I live, in caves that are verifiably safe due to no rain, my adrenaline is through the roof.

But even in day to day life I feel like I'm living in black and white. I don't know. It feels silly that one day like that could ruin my life like this, and to be fair there are so many other stressors in my life. That's just the big one.

I just want to return to the original question: can all of those symptoms I mentioned be a part of TMS? Can PTSD in the person who has previously had TMS manifest like this?

Thanks everyone, really.

 

Can't speak to all of that, but YES panic attacks are part of TMS and Sarno covered that in his writings. It's just an acute form of TMS like horrible spasms.

Just before I cam down with my worst ever TMS (that ended up bringing me to Sarno ) I had a series of panic attacks. That was in the late 90's. I had insurance and a battery of tests done to figure out what was happening...obviously by the time i got to these doctors, the attacks were over as they were usually about 10-30 minutes in duration.
I happened to have one right in front of the Paramount clinic one day..."OMG I am dying"...-NO, you're not...bp is fine, heart rate is a little elevated, but your actually OK.... "NO...REALLY....The world is going to end any minute!"

Other things contributed.. I was drinking gobs of coffee, washing down workout supplements SOME of the times , BUT No one ever suggested Panic attacks as they just weren't being talked about back then. They did thousands of dollars worth of tests...Nothing.

I was at a supermarket one morning and I watched one of the deli girls having one...She had just finished a night shift...I asked her co-workers what was wrong and they told me she was having a panic attack..that was my 'Aha' moment. I recognized everything about it. I also remembered that my first one came when I was being monstrously overworked on little sleep...in fact, I was coming back to work at midnight after only a couple of hours of sleep.

As soon as I knew what they were, they stopped. Much like what we learn with Pain, as soon as I realized they were a scary nothing burger, they lost the ability to hold my attention...and I came down with Back Pain a few months later. 1000% TMS

 

TMS is a form of anxiety, period. Everything you mention can be part of TMS -depersonalization is merely another defense mechanism to keep you safe from whatever the brain is perceiving as unsafe. It can be a sign of internal stress. When I had extremely harsh feelings about myself, I would do this. It’s your brain stepping away from the vast amount of internal dialogue /thoughts that are overwhelming. All of these things have been part of my TMS experience. Dr. Schubiner even has a book on anxiety, he recognizes that TMS and anxiety go hand and hand.
Folks who have these symptoms need to do the internal work to recognize how the combination of personality and your past create the internal stress cycles experienced today. I did this using Dr. Sarno’s work, the SEP, mindfulness and eventually after all those things EMDR. I approach these things like any TMS symptom.

 

@JanAtheCPA @Cactusflower @Baseball65 Thank you all for your responses. To be honest, after writing all of that out yesterday I instantly felt a massive sense of relief and improvement in my day. When my girlfriend came to see me later in the day, my symptoms got worse... I'm beginning to wonder if my relationship with her isn't as perfect as I thought it to be, in addition to everything else that I wrote. I felt MUCH better, seriously. Yesterday started me nearly about to get sick, but after writing all of that I felt a sense of strength and joy and focus that I haven't felt in a long time, and it lasted for several hours too. I am almost completely convinced now that this is all just 100% TMS. The fatigue, panic attacks, depersonalization, headaches, etc. is likely just me avoiding myself. Repressing things inside of me.

It's funny because I read almost all of the books (if not all) by Dr. John Sarno and Dr. Steve Ozanich, but that was I think in 2017 or 2018. Maybe I need to pick 'em up again and re-read. I will be reaching out for therapy ASAP though, I've reached out to some of the online TMS therapists. I'm gonna start taking my mental health seriously. There's still a deep fear inside of me that it's something "really really bad," but I'm beginning to doubt that. Maybe I'll start by journaling symptoms and paying attention to the inconsistencies. If I recall correctly that helped before...Anyways today I feel much better. Thank you everyone.

And JanAtheCPA you bring up an excellent point about the "state of the world." Yes this is definitely a factor as well. After I wrote this post I wrote down a list of things stressing me out, and it's a massive multi-page list. I had to stop writing not because the list was finished but because my hand was getting tired and I wanted to do something else. So it's a long list, just excluding the "state of the world," but the "state of the world" certainly doesn't help either.

 

These are the kind of things that "go straight to the unconscious and stay there" and are the first place I look when I have an issue. The stuff I know about is an OK place to start, but making a list of people close to me who I DON'T Think I am angry at is a better place to hunt for symptom resolution.
The unconscious doesn't make any sense....so feelings of dependence, attachment and responsibility are ALL rage makers/symptom producers.

I always remember being in a facility that had group therapies, and a woman I had never spoken with coming and telling me point blank "Your marriage is a disaster" or something like this. I was indignant! "How can YOU know that?" I asked her.

"You have sat here and talked about your sons, your work, Baseball and Music but have never once mentioned your wife!"

and she was right.

 

Yes, this is a GREAT reminder! I was recently reading about the difference between suppression and repression -- suppression essentially being a conscious choice to "push down" with repression being an unconscious process.

I am aware of certain emotional responses that I suppress because I know they're irrational or will not benefit anyone if I were to dwell on or express them. And I know those things are worth spending more time focusing on, but trying to turn my efforts towards possible actual repressed emotions is where I feel the real healing would begin... easier said than done.

 

Wow thanks again everyone. Well, this makes a lot of sense then.

I do know that I feel like I've been "over-giving" in my life a lot recently, I wonder if this is creating a lot of REPRESSED RAGE because I feel like I'm the one giving and making things happen and deep down I feel lonely so maybe the subconscious mind is repressing these things because I don't feel like I have the safe ability to feel/express this rage and hatred and anger and pain and sadness.

I went for a walk yesterday on a mountain alone at night with the intention of reflecting on all of these things. Yeah, a lot came out of me. I feel trapped with my girlfriend, and to be honest, I never wanted to have a girlfriend, not now in this period of my life at least. It just kind of... Happened, you know? And there are many great things about her, she's definitely incredible but I realize now that's probably causing my subconscious mind to instantly repress things that upset me about her.

One topic I kept going back to is my desire for freedom. Freedom to travel, freedom to spend my time as I want, and dare I say freedom to see others (I'm still quite young, and again didn't want a relationship right now). And when I write this last bit I nearly have a panic attack, my heart feels like it's gonna go crazy and I'm gonna explode into a panic attack, and the headache starts to come back too.

I'm beginning to think that the TMS/panic attacks/whatever is the disconnect between how I wanted to live this period of life vs. how it's actually being lived.

There are a couple of things that coincided with increasing anxiety, TMS, etc. The first is starting to see that girl that has kind of become my girlfriend. The second is rescuing a kitten, which has been a TON of work at first, now not as much but for the first few months a lot. And I didn't intend to "get" a kitten, I just rescued it by the side of the road and took her in myself. The third is a water surge incident in a cave 2-3 months after girlfriend/kitten (I met both in the same week, within like 2 days) which may have added PTSD on top of this mess.

Thanks again everyone. Oh and just writing out "see others" nearly causes a panic attack, lol, as if something bad is going to happen to me for saying this. I never wanted my freedom stripped of me, and to be fair I actually still am "free." It's just I'm holding myself back from social life and travel because of these things. It's still "my fault," but for some reason I'm doing it.. I don't know. It's weird

 

I relate to you...it sounds like you live your life a bit passively in that things just happen to you rather than you making things happen with intention. That said, I think you are right about the disconnect between how you want to live your life vs. how you actually are. I recently heard TMS being described as 'internal conflict' and that helped something click for me a bit. Consciously you are living your life in a way / responding to things in a way / engaging in relationships in a way that unconsciously enrages you.

Your desire for freedom to me indicates that currently you feel 'stuck' ... which I also relate to because I believe it is that very feeling that triggered my TMS. All I can say is lean into what scares you, what you feel is going to bring on a panic attack, be curious about it instead of afraid of it. Teach your brain that you will not die if you think these things and feel these things. You may decide you don't want your relationship OR you may recognize that the feelings you have - while real and true to you - do not remain how you feel after you process them. But you'll never know if you keep avoiding them.

Something that stuck with me recently --- avoidance is just prolonged suffering disguised as safety.

Best of luck to you.

 

“I wonder if this is creating a lot of REPRESSED RAGE because I feel like I'm the one giving and making things happen and deep down I feel lonely so maybe the subconscious mind is repressing these things because I don't feel like I have the safe ability to feel/express this rage and hatred and anger and pain and sadness.”

this ^^^

Is the beginning.

Dr. Schubiner has mentioned that he’s seeing patients mention sadness and loneliness as a first indicator of TMS (along with chronic symptoms).

Although you are now aware of some of your possible triggers, also look into the things you think may be going well in your life. Believe it our not, our minds can use these thoughts as distractions from some real dissatisfaction too.

Keep going!

 

Yeah @ARCUser831 you're dead on about me living life passively. I did more reflecting in this last day or two, and it's completely on. Here's the thing. I lived my life passively because of so much bullshit I had to deal with in 2023. For context, I'm an "expat" living abroad, and in 2023 getting my visa situation sorted was an absolute mess. I had to leave the country FOUR TIMES among tons of other immigration office visits, paperwork, lawyer fees, etc. just so much FUCKING nonsense. Excuse my language but it really dampened my love for this country. Since early 2023 I've been living in a less-than-ideal apartment with neighbors that slam their doors and it's just way too small for me. I have the financial resources for better and wanted to rent a house like I did before (in early 2023 my house contract expired and they didn't renew it). The thing is I never rented a house because of the fact I was having visa issues and having to go in and out of the country to sort shit out. All the while I was trying to maintain a mentality of positivity, but during a call I had with a family member this morning they put it perfectly: "you had to spend all that money and time and energy just to maintain the status quo, it's not like you even got something from it." Bloody hell I feel so many emotions flowing through me right now, and you know what those emotions feel like? Panic attack. The emotions are so bloody intense that it nearly sets me off into a full panic attack, but at least this time I'm feeling the emotions and not repressing it. This fucking country's immigration process is such a mess, and I've had to deal with so much nonsense, lost money, and lost time as a result.

That's why I didn't rent a house. That's why I passively kind of got a girlfriend without intending to. That's why I wasn't working on my business. That's [a reason] why I was getting disconnected from friends and getting more lonely. Kind of hard to make progress in life when you're jumping through hoops just to maintain the status quo.

And @ARCUser831 you're 100% on that I'm living a life that unconsciously enrages me. I hate it. I hate that my work is piled up, that I've gotten disconnected from friends, so on and so forth. It's unconsciously enraging to the point that I, for the first time I think ever, told a family member "I HATE IT HERE!" I don't think I ever once said that before. I've always felt like I lived in "paradise," at least a great place for me to live in. But a part of me just got so emotional on that call and I felt like I released a lot of pain by admitting that a part of me hates living here. I hate the immigration, I hate the paperwork, I hate the lost money and lost time and lost energy and how it's delayed my life so much.

@Cactusflower excellent point and you're right, loneliness is a huge factor for me. I'm trying to be more social in general. I'm also gonna try make more of a social life outside of intense nature adventures as those intense adventures had become my only source of social life.

@JanAtheCPA Thanks for unsent letter idea. That's a great idea. To be honest though, a lot of my dissatisfaction isn't from her but it's from how I've let things become (passive living). Don't get me wrong, I've recognized a few things in her that maybe unconsciously enrages me, but it's still one of the better relationships I've had. I just need less time with her and more time with guy friends and others. She has been willing to let me have my freedom to see others, I've just never taken action on it. She's also let me know that it's okay if I need to leave the country to visit family, or travel, or whatever. It's been hard in this past week because we've stopped seeing each other daily, but it's what I need and she seems to be accepting of it and finding an outlet with her friends. That's good. It's just for some reason I subconsciously don't take care of myself, which isn't fair to her either because I've grown a bit bitter towards her and not wanting to see her.

That's also interesting about those 4 things which can cause a lot of chaos in one's life. I feel like I'm dealing with a bit of all to be honest. I don't feel free, I feel isolated, I feel lost and meaningless, and I have had to struggle with the mortality issue during the PTSD incident.

Thanks again everyone. It's been a lot to think about and you've all helped me which I'm very grateful for. Even just posting her I feel like I'm opening up so many channels for healing. I know it's gonna be a process and I still feel like I'm "getting my shit together," but at least I'm getting started in a more positive direction.

This time around, it doesn't seem so hard to accept the TMS diagnosis. Maybe it's not even "full blown TMS" in the sense of "physical pain" symptoms. It's more-so just this deep stress smacking me down. Maybe I should go get a massage or something, lol. I haven't had one in a long time.

 

To me, it sounds like your mindset is in the best place it could be to do this work. You are aware of yourself and the current state of your life, willing to feel the difficult emotions and come to terms with your 'truths'. That comment your friend made about putting in all that time, energy, and money just to stay afloat - to not really even get anything out of it - was a good insight because that's exactly the type of experience that would be enraging. Feeling like you had to maintain a level-head, a modicum of positivity, etc. all indicates that you were not allowing yourself to feel the actual emotions that the experience was causing.

It sounds like your girlfriend is incredibly understanding of your needs at this time, and the challenge is YOU actually doing what YOU need. To me, this suggests you likely became accustomed early in life to pushing down your own wants, needs, and emotions in order to make room for the wants, needs, and emotions of others. Putting yourself first when on some level you learned a long time ago that doing the opposite was what kept you safe is a difficult thing. I struggle with that too. I'm lucky to have someone in my life that I trust and that guides me and motivates me to do difficult things, so I have improved, but I know it takes patience and small steps. As you take steps towards self-care, self-advocacy, self-compassion, you will slowly begin to teach yourself that these are not dangerous things, they are actually very important and will improve your quality of life AND your relationships with others.

 

Anxiety and panic attacks are symptoms of TMS. They may or may not be accompanied by chronic pain, but for sure they could be healed from by using the same TMS techniques. The main, the best authority on anxiety is Dr. Claire Weekes, and I highly recommend her book, especially therapeutic is the audio version of it, Hope And Help For Your Nerves. She was a godsend to me and many people on this forum.