Modic I

I had a very abusive childhood. Complete matching TMS personality traits. People pleaser - hardworking, go-getter - anxiety, sensitive . Had gen. anxiety disorder 3 years ago - causing gastrointestinal shit for 4 months. Then came pterygoid hamulus busitis for a couple of years. Then pain in SI region for 3 months - went away after physio. Six montsh later - now in severe pain for 8 months - sacroiliac area again . Like two rats gnawing away. Leg length disprepency. MRI - erosive osteochondrosis aka Modic I L4 - also bulging discs with irriated L5 root. I want to be sure that this pain is TMS and not structural. Doc reckons that L5 irritation is causing pain in upper buttock / sacroliac region. Another says projected pain from spine. Other docs have diagnosed pelvic twist, SI joint disfunction, piriformus syndrome and all kinds of sh**. Friends who know me say it is in my head. Life is a nightmare. Any thoughts would be appreciated - thanks!

 

Pretty much similar to my story: gastric distress started as a child, thyroid (although that runs in the family), then back, feet, hips, SI, piriformis, shoulders ... nightmare. If you hold yourself in tension in mind and in body you are going to feel it both in your mind and in your body. Anxiety and physical pain.
Ease your mind, see your internal patterns and how they manifest physically. I would say my twisted mind has twisted my body. There is relief. You may have had some therapy for your abusive upbringing, but the mind-body angle of this work will show you how the thought patterns you learned to cope as a child are still your default coping mechanisms even if you don't realize it. You can heal.

 

Thanks for your reply. Much appreciated. I wanted more to stress the point of me having Modic 1 or erosive osteochondrosis - which are not mentioned in Sarno's books - or is this what he meant by osteoarthritis of the spine? Apparently 6% of population has modic changes : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modic_changes (Modic changes - Wikipedia) . Pain is worst in mornings and then gets better during the day - which concerns me that it is inflammatory shite, however, the pain is in sacroiliac region and not L4 - maybe L4 inflammation in morning causes more disc pressure on root nerve. However when I press on a certain muscle or location in middle/top left SI region, I seem to be able to provoke the pain.Dr. Sarno also mentions about pain starting at certain times - like in the morning. PS I have slight numbness in both feet and outer side of right thigh. Does not concern me at all. But the pain ....

 

So with a bone marrow oedema of 2 x 2.5 x 2 cm in L4 (modic 1#) can I ignore it as pain source and go running?

 

In my humble opinion Modic changes is "old science".
Trust fully in Sarno !

 

I have not heard of your diagnoses before, but it sounds fairly similar to things I have been diagnosed with including discs. Sarno often called this type of diagnoses as “normal abnormalities”. Disc pain hurts, but not everyone with disc diagnoses has pain (as suggested in video).
That is not to say that injuries happen. It is how we react to the information we get via both medical practitioners and our bodies that can influence pain levels, our fears etc.
A few questions to think about: did a technician at MRI clinic or your doctor tell you about the diagnoses? My MRI showed potentially scary stuff, the technician noted it but the surgeon said none of it seems to be the cause of pain. Old disc bulges were noted on MRI but all had “healed” they are there but not in contact with a nerve. Small technicalities can sometime help peace of mind.
If running causes pain or increases anxiety right now, choose another method of exercise - or discuss with your Dr. any movement fears. Some Dr.s are supportive, some tend to give worst case treatment options. It’s up to you to make the decision in the long run.
That said, your personality and past symptoms align with Sarno’s book.. it’s up you you to connect the dots.
Again, a small number of folks have real concerns but almost all benefit from lowered stress and increased quality of life if they do TMS work and stick to the idea that some if not all is related to the psychological and internal conflict and anxiety.
There are two free programs to help you further your understanding of tms and you, on this website.

Best wishes!

 

CactusF - many thanks. I am basically through with doctors except a one or two. The bone oedema was found by a 73 year old professor and radiologist. His speciality is bone tumours. Very experienced. As mentioned before I have a 2.0 x 2.5 x 2.0 cm marrow oedema in L4 with Deckplatte (cover plate) and Grundplatte (base plate) roughening. Such is not EXPRESSELY mentioned in Sarno's book, maybe because it falls under osteoarthritis?? Until now no-one here can confirm that. My pain is bad, last 7 months have been a nightmare. The disc at the location of the erosive osteoch. is bulging into left root at L5. Looks pinched so bad like a sand timer. He said that that is what is causing the pain in my sacroiliac region on left side - aka projecting pain. However - I think I have found that location and can provoke the pain with thumb - maybe a muscle like Sarno mentioned as being typical characteristic of TMS at the top of buttocks. Was instructed by the old professor to do physio so that the oedema comes to rest and he told me that it would heal. Other docs say my SI pain is from pelvic twist, SIJ disfunction, pirformus, leg length discrepency - many docs say because I have a difference of 2.5 cm before manipulation and one said Morbus Bechterev. I cannot find the wording "marrow oedema in vertebra" or "erosive osteochondrosis" in Sarnos books - seems more serious than protruding disc which I have, and scoliosis which I have (slightly) and a degenerative disc (dessication with height loss and protrusion) which I have (at Modic location of course). But as I mentioned I am getting strong signals, very strong signals that this is TMS (I'll expain maybe later). And my past and personality traits couldn't be more TMS. Left my family for 17 years - no contact at all due to abuse. My best friend is sure that it is in my mind.

 

Many thanks for your quick reply. I am not interested in whether it is old or new science. As mentioned I have a 2.0 x 2.5 x 2.0 cm marrow oedema in L4 with Deckplatte (cover plate) and Grundplatte (base plate) roughening. My pain is bad, last 7 months have been a nightmare. Was instructed by an old professor to do physio. Are you saying I can ignore it, stop physio and go for a run? I cannot find the wording "marrow oedema in vertebra" or "erosive osteochondrosis" in Sarnos books. Is this encompassed by his term "osteoarthritis"??. No-one here seems to be able to answer these questions. Best wishes- sorry if I am repeating myself - but I need to know before I start running again.

 

Over time you start to learn that the body can be twisted into all kinds of weirdness and NOT cause pain. Even when under a microscope, so to speak, the weirdness can be visible and still not cause pain.
It's interesting that your friends think it's "all in your head." Maybe they know something that your brain is not quite ready to accept?
It's so easy to get caught up in our diagnoses, on variously named medical issues we read about, and generally anything we can find to put a medical diagnosis on the sensations our body is giving to us. We like to think there is something medically wrong with us. And then we hyper focus on that.

Since what you are experiencing is not deadly, what if you decided to set aside worrying about it for awhile...allow yourself to have the pain without much thought or question or diagnosing. Just ignore, let it be, and if you want say "hello" to it.
And instead spend that time you might otherwise be thinking about it, researching it, studying it, etc. with pen and paper and writing about your emotions, about your abusive childhood, about your tucked away or not so tucked away anger.

I mean, really, you have nothing to lose if you decide to stop thinking about the pain for a few months.
And probably a lot to gain by spending time on the emotions.
You might find, like a lot of us did, that one day you realize -- oh, hey, that pain I used to have is gone and I didn't even notice it.

Best of luck to you.

 

Many thanks Booble.

 

I suggest you to contact one of the docs with experience in the TMS fenomenon
https://www.tmswiki.org/ppd/Find_a_TMS_Doctor_or_Therapist (Find a TMS Doctor or Therapist)
Nothing to lose but everything to gain !

 

You say : "Flawless responses from @Cactusflower and @Booble. Both of whom correctly ignored the technical symptom details you posted. I skipped right over them myself.". I am grateful for your response. However, this seems to be in direct opposition to what SteveO in his book says "This book is not a substitute for a physical examination. You must first rule out the most dangerous possibilities. The Rule of the 5 Bees
Beware if it is bleeding, bumped, broken or bruised" And odema is a bone bruise. So I am stuck.

 

Thanks have contacted the TMS doctor in Berlin. Hope he can diagnose me

 

It sounds like at this point you feel certain that the pain is purely from the physical and that your mind is not creating or exacerbating it. In which case, TMS and this forum are not appropriate for you.

And yet you do come back and you've contacted a TMS doctor. It sounds like a part of you knows that it is from your brain on TMS?
But, Catfish, seriously, I think it's going to be a waste of your time and money. You seem pretty rooted in the belief that it's different for you and your pain is structural. And if so, why aren't you exploring further with medical doctors? You're not going to get far with TMS based on your responses here. It seems like you are pretty confident it's not TMS. The TMS therapist won't change that. You go to the TMS therapist when you are pretty sure it IS TMS.

 

No I am not certain! I could very well be TMS and I want it to be. Not exploring further with medical doctors? Are you taking the piss?. I have explored with 8 specialist quacks and spent tens of thousand of euros, also two MRIs. And as many diagnoses - Twisted pevis, SI joint disfunction, piriformus, Morbus Bechterev. Now Modic 1 and bulging discs pressing against nerve on MRI. I'm through with conventional doctors. Why the`** do you think I am here?. You talk of therapist. I need a bloody TMS diagnosis from a DOCTOR. Dr. Sarno was a DOCTOR and he DIAGNOSED people with TMS. I asked in other places here if Modic 1 belongs to those "diseases" such as bulging discs, etc. which Dr. Sarno says doesn't cause pain. If they cannot say for sure then just admit it. JanAtheCPA above say she ignored the technical symptoms. What a joke!. What if they were coughing up blood?

 

Ok, calm, calm.
I think what's happening here is we are trying to help you get pointed in the right direction.
We've given you a lot of info to get started and you keep saying it's different for you. You have the structural issue. You're wanting someone to tell you definitively that your pain is or isn't from the structural issue. That ain't going to happen.
You've been to medical doctors and they have not helped. Which is presumably why you are starting to see that it is TMS.
But when we talk to you about TMS, you go back to it being structural and different for you.
I get that you are mad and frustrated. Wasting money on doctors and getting no where and still being in pain is maddening.
But I'm going to tell you right now, you are going to have the same frustration with a TMS therapist if you are thinking they will be able to "diagnose" your structural situation vis a vis TMS.

For me if I were you, I'd say to myself, Okay, fuckit. This isn't something doctors seem to be able to diagnose or help me make the pain go away -- so it seems a good possibility that this pain is from my brain on TMS. And go with that as your diagnosis.

You are not coughing up blood. You don't have anything which you are dying from. You have been to a million doctors who would have noted an emergency if there was one. No doctor has been able to stop your pain. At this point, in the TMS world, what is relevant is not the specific malformations that the various doctors have said, it's the pain. You have pain. You want it to stop.

Personally I don't think you need a TMS therapist and I think one will end up pissing you off and you will feel cheated again. I don't think you need a medical doctor either because you've already been there, done that.

What you need, RIGHT NOW, is to stop fucking with trying to figure out if it's structural. What you need is to forget about Odema an Modic. What you need to do is exactly what I said in my post above.
You need to stop trying to "figure it out" -- and start doing exactly what Sarno says to do. Switch your focus to your emotions.
You're clearly pissed off. GOOD. You're mad at me and and Jan, GREAT. You're probably angry at a whole lot of people in your life. People in your life now, and people in your life in the past. Sarno wants you to FIND that. FEEL that. ADMIT that.
I don't know how to say it in any other words but if you took all that energy you have been putting into trying to determine if the pain is structural and put it into getting to your emotions that have been suppressed, you'd be done with the pain.

 

Hi catfish baby,

Unfortunately, I don't think that there will be a TMS doctor that would be likely to convince you that your spinal area symptoms are TMS. I say this because most are not back experts, albeit that some of them might be able to tell you about patients of theirs who were diagnosed with Modic 1, but their pain went away once they had managed to convince themself that modic 1 wasn't responsible for their pain and it was TMS. The only TMS back expert doctor that I know of is Dr David Hanscom, a back surgeon who had been suffering back pain himself who taught his brain to stop giving him TMS. I don't know whether he sees TMS patients personally though, but he wrote a book about his experiences and here's a link to a webpage about him https://mytmsjourney.com/experts/dr-david-hanscom/ (Dr David Hanscom), plus here, on his website, he mentions modic changes https://backincontrol.com/surgery/decision-making/non-structural-problems/ (Non-structural Problems)

I watched the modic 1 video and noted that the treatments for it are either with drugs (that will have the potential for side effects) or surgery (with the risks that would also entail) and that there are differing opinions as to the cause of causes of modic 1, which means that you wouldn't know for sure what the best medical treatment would be for you if you were to go down the medical route. It would obviously be something that you would have to judge for yourself - try to judge which expert you believe as to whether the cause of your modic 1 is autoimmune or mechanical or due to infection.

I note, however, the video concludes with the advice that "the best thing you can do is live your life as normally as your pain allows" and that's generally the very same advice given regarding TMS, so it doesn't appear that you have anything to lose by following that advice.

I've read Steve O's book and was alarmed at how he half killed himself with so much running, golfing etc., to convince his brain that he was safe and that each activity was safe for him to do...and he got better. However, I also read somewhere - can't recall where - that he doesn't now recommend a 'hell-bent for leather' approach like the one he took. So, my humble suggestion is that you get on with life as best you can, forget about running for a while, whilst you look for evidence that your symptoms are TMS and endeavour to reduce your stress levels.

A start might be to keep reminding yourself that some of your symptoms have come and stayed for a long time and then have eventually gone, only to be replaced with other symptoms, and that some of your symptoms have come and stayed and then gone and then returned - which are all hallmarks of TMS (albeit your brain will almost certainly come up with all sorts of other reasons to explain and try to convince you otherwise). I would consider too that the improvement for a while with your SI area symptoms may have been to do with your faith in the physiotherapy and the physical therapist helping you at the time and that perhaps they returned after you finished attending for physio - not sure if that's the case or not, but this is the kind of thing that you need to look for.

Videos that might help you prove to yourself that you are suffering TMS (with thanks to my wonderful friend @Marls for recommending them to me in the first place):





Also, I recommend noticing the thoughts that pop into your head...are they a lot of doom and gloom, fearful or otherwise unhelpful? Do you believe most if not all of the thoughts that come into your mind and/or then let your mind run away with more and more related thoughts that are also far from helpful?

This video has helped me a lot to detach myself from such useless and symptom-inducing thoughts:


Also, Dr Sarno said to talk to our brain, to tell it to stop producing symptoms - for some people that works well, so it's worth a try.

Best;
BM

 

Many thanks BM. Grateful for your input. Some more information for you: According to Wiki, 6% of population have Modic changes (MC). So Modic does not normally relate to severe back pain otherwise Modic would be as well known as migraine (my logical deduction - am I right here?).

Funny, the first bout of back pain (in particular SI joint pain) lasted 3 months. Had severe legal issues and was diagnosed by 1st doctor as having axial spondylitis (AS). On the day of (first) MRI whilst waiting for the results someone called me to say the legal matter has been resolved. 10 minutes later I received a diagnosis of severely activated osteochondrosis and was told I had no AS. I was relieved by both good news and a few days later the back (SIJ) pain reduced by 80%. The back pain started after my pterygoid hamulus pain bursitis pain of about 2 years started to be healed. The diagnosis and healing came from an extremely intelligent and empathetic female oral surgeon (the first time I perceived her I knew she was the big guns genius). Btw she was always telling me how highly sensitive I was!! -probably the most sensitive patient she has ever met. A little time (month or so) after my back pain started- Sept. 2020, I also came down with a strange sore throat after a stressful holiday caused by lack of sleep due to PHB pain and heat - like a low grade cold with headache. After it went - took 3 weeks - my colds are always gone within a week -I came out with a rash on my arms. No doctor could diagnose this rash. This rash /headache and sore throat always returned and strangely enough, in late summer 2021 during the physio when the back pain was low, this rash came back. The back pain returned for a week or so in Autumn in the days leading up to visiting my aunt who is extremely stressful - sometimes venomous - she always stresses me out and a friend of hers says she cannot spend more than 2 hours with her. The day I returned home the pain left. But the rash appeared after. The nightmare of back pain returned after my aunt kept calling me many times in December and January 2022 asking me the same questions in a dementia-like manner - she wanted to leave Spain and go back home. Travel was difficult because of lockdown. I thought this was dementia and I felt obliged to travel abroad to see her and get her back home somehow. A friend of hers who I know said that the car journey with her would kill me LOL - was an impossible task because she is extremely difficult, tongue like a sword despite her 94 years old here sister - (my mother was worse- so you can imagine what I suffered like as a very sensitive child - I remember her and her mother laughing at my twin brother of 7 years old when he cried because they upset him). This episode of worry about my aunt having dementia and getting her home with all her venom is when the nightmare of back pain returned with an even greater vengeance. Went to see her and organise flight. Since then I have had no rash/sore throat episodes but terrible SIJ and back pain. My best friend is sure that it is psychosomatic. The "only „stress now is the severe anxiety of this pain , lack of sleep, losing my work due to lack of sleep and what the future holds, back operation, worsening pain. Btw, three months after my severe nausea which began before all this shit started, the GI doctor who dealt with me and had seen all MRIs and gastroscopy, blood results etc told me it was psychosomatic and my body was definitely OK. The nausea left 24 hours later wow. I hadn't seen this doctor for years and he is retired. Then a month ago, I was walking in our town (250,000) people, and just in front of physio studio I met him again. Told him of my problem and his departing words were, all will be OK! As if he knew something.

 

Ok, calm, calm.
I think what's happening here is we are trying to help you get pointed in the right direction.

Normally I am too calm and nice, the day I wrote was the day I decided not to be a nice guy anymore LOL. Best wishes