TMS Theories vs Practical Applications - Kitchen Sink Edition (retitled 6.19.24)

@JanAtheCPA Thank you! I'm really, *really* struggling to understand something.

First: "Yes, but" was a thing in Recovery Inc. too. (I guess Dr Low's Recovery Inc is
Recovery International now, and Recovery Inc today is something else. ) I only mention that because I was a trained facilitator for Recovery Inc. for many years, and I recognize the "Yes, but" blockade quite well.

That said, I'm "Yes, butting" you NOT because I don't believe in PRT, nor because I think I'm a special exception for whom PRT can't work, but in a sincere effort to understand why things I've done haven't worked (on this symptom, so far) ... because I DO think PRT can help me.

The reason I think PRT can help me is that it's exactly what I've been seeking for several years:

A method to train my brain to disregard a medically meaningless physical symptom by losing my fear of the symptom ... because I know my fear of the symptom's intrusive presence is the REASON it persists.

That's been my goal since a few years before I finally discovered PRT with a Google search, and my goal was validated a few months ago when I finally met with a doctor who does PRT (after waiting six months for the appointment). In other words, nobody has to convince me that my brain is causing this symptom, nor that it is tied to anxiety and trauma. I'm the one who told my doctors that, not the other way around. When I found PRT online, I read the definition to my therapist and he said, "That's exactly what you've been looking for!!" And I said "I know, right?"

It's in that spirit that I ask why this symptom persists despite the fact I've done, and am doing, things I see in Dr Schubiner's book and in this forum. I AM willing to keep putting in the work, but if the way I'm doing it is the reason it's ineffective, then I want to change the way I'm doing it so it CAN be effective.
It's NOT that I already know everything, or anything for that matter. If I did, I wouldn't be in the situation I'm in now.

The way you phrased the above, it sounds like I'm among the "certain individuals" who just can't or won't get better. Am I interpreting that correctly? I understand that I'm the key to my relief, not you. But it sounds like you've seen "my type" many times and you know how our story ends. This makes me feel very discouraged.

You've hit a nail on a head here.

I want to accept myself, but I don't want to accept this life the way I'm living it. It isn't worth living.

 

That's sounds a little more like new age-y stress relief (forgive me if you are into new age) and regular anger anger.

I think what you are doing is expressing your known anger versus your hidden anger. The stuff that causes the physical symptoms is tucked away and the physical symptoms are there to distract you and make sure you don't find it.

You've got a super strong protective mechanism. It's actually quite impressive. Which means that you need to let your protective self know, "thanks, but I'm going in."

You've got to peel off the layers like peeling an onion. The good stuff is hiding under all that.
And by good stuff, it doesn't have to be anything earth shattering.

Maybe you can do some written exploration starting with all the anger that you expressed recently and ask yourself WHY?

Are you familiar with the Japanese "5 Why" method for problem solving?
You ask why. And then when you get an answer you ask why to that you ask Why. And then you keep asking why.

Here is an example from a TMS perspective. (FYI, I'm just making this up. I'm not a therapist and this isn't some kind of known technique in TMS.)

Why was I so angry last week?

Because my stupid boyfriend didn't take out the trash AGAIN.

Why did that make you so angry?

Because when he doesn't take the trash out, sometimes the dog gets into it.

Why does that make you so angry?

Because I'm afraid he might eat something dangerous and it might kill him?

Why does that make you so angry?

Because I don't want my dog to die.

Why?
Because I will feel like a failure.

Why?
Because my Mum used to always say I couldn't take care of my stuff..............



So in this example, if the person yelled and screamed and got out all that anger about the boy friend not taking out the trash, that wouldn't get to the TMS symptom causing anger.

 

Ha! We can make it a new thread if you think it will help.

 

OK, I'll take a stab at my perspective on your post to @JanAtheCPA if that's OK.

I have no idea was PRT is -- did you mean to post on a different forum, not the TMS one?
I quoted that bit of your post above because as someone with health anxiety I can clearly state that there is no fucking way I could train my brain to disregard a physical symptom by losing my fear of the symptom. Nope. That ain't happening. If I fear the symptom, I fear the symptom. If it's a symptom that "could" by chance mean I have some condition that might kill me, then I'm going to fear it. I can temporarily block my fear but it will keep coming back. But what I can do, is apply TMS techniques so that the symptom goes away.

From a TMS perspective, the reason the symptom persists, and I'm sorry for sounding like a broken record, is because the symptom is there to distract you.
Yes, it persists because you are giving it space and encouragement by focusing on it -- thus telling your inner self -- "Ha ha! It's working!"

To me the method is not trying to lose your fear of the symptom, because that ain't happening. It's to redirect every time the fear thoughts come into your head and force yourself to instead focus on digging into your emotions rather than thinking and obsessing on the symptom.
When you start constantly thinking about the symptom, grab that pen and paper and dig into to some meaty stuff to find what you are angry about that you (or your little younger self) don't really know you are angry about.

It's a matter of you (in previous posts) having big, big, walls up.
It's a lot easier to spot this in other people than in ourselves. I mean, we all have some walls up at least at the start of this TMS journey our we wouldn't be in this situation in the first place. What are walls anyways? Walls are to block us from getting to the meat.
If you go back and read your first post(s) as objectively as you can, you 'll see it too.


Jan's posts are never meant to discourage people. In fact they are really the reverse of that.
She is really good at giving "tough love" -- like a smack across the face -- to help people either see it...or not. If they are not ready or the walls are so high they can't see it, then they move on. Others go -- holy shit, she was right. And then they can start to really get to the root cause of their symptoms.


I'm not so good with giving tough love because of my own crap/weakness of needing to be admired. Which isn't very helpful. I try to point things out and explain and give examples from my own life in hopes that a lightbulb might go off for people, but really some good tough love to get you to look at yourself is probably the more effective/quicker way to see how the walls are preventing doing the things that will take the symptoms away.

 

(A quick clarification: I'm getting TMS = Transcranial Magnetic Stimulation therapy right now, and it's common treatment. So that's MY first association with that particular initialism. I realize it wouldn't be yours.)

Re PRT (Pain Reprocessing Therapy) ... I'm baffled. I don't know where to go from here.

@JanAtheCPA wrote:

I was perplexed that so much of it related to PRT ... I haven't had any interest in learning more about PRT because my sense is that it is aimed at people who want a logical and intellectualized process for dealing with their chronic pain ... those aren't the folks I'm personally interested in communicating with ... You are absolutely free to continue intellectualizing your way out of this, but I got nothin' for that, sorry!​

@Booble wrote:

I have no idea was PRT is -- did you mean to post on a different forum, not the TMS one?​

Wait, what? Isn't Pain Reprocessing Therapy simply the NAME of the therapy connected with Drs Sarno and Schubiner, the MindBody Syndrome approach, the Curable app, and Alan Gordon (of the Pain Reprocessing Therapy Institute)? It's not? By referring to PRT, I'm simply intellectualizing and wasting others' time? Where should I be if not here?

I'm not trying to be pedantic. I'm sitting here, crying and confused — and, yes, angry. Because I've misunderstood everything about this, and I'm at the end of my rope.... again and always.

@Booble wrote:

there is no fucking way I could train my brain to disregard a physical symptom by losing my fear of the symptom. Nope. That ain't happening. If I fear the symptom, I fear the symptom. If it's a symptom that "could" by chance mean I have some condition that might kill me, then I'm going to fear it.​

Does it matter WHY I fear the symptom? That's a real question, because my symptom ISN'T medically dangerous and I've always known that. It can't kill me. I wish it could.

The symptom fills me with terror because it's so constant and intrusive it's taken over my life, not because I think it's cancer or something. So this can't help? (I was directed to Dr Schubiner's book and this website after a two-hour consultation with a PRT practitioner who knew that I know this symptom isn't medically dangerous but nevertheless was optimistic that I'd respond well to Dr Schubiner's method, as have people with Tinnitus, also not a medically dangerous condition. Unfortunately he's not taking clients. Did he get it wrong? Did I?)

@Booble said:

(Your screaming) sounds a little more like new age-y stress relief (forgive me if you are into new age) and regular anger anger ... Why? Because I will feel like a failure. Why? Because my Mum used to always say I couldn't take care of my stuff ... force yourself to instead focus on digging into your emotions rather than thinking and obsessing on the symptom.​

I'm not sure what your "New Agey" reference means because I'm the least New Agey person I know, LOL. I'm not applying some technique, I'm screaming out in blind rage, fear and grief because I've gone through WAY more trauma the last decade than I have the strength to stand, and I lost my ability to cope a long time ago.

I love the Japanese "5 Why" method, but hadn't heard the name. To answer your question (maybe, I hope?) ... I kind of do that anyway, most of the time. By that I mean, when multiple trivialities send me into a rage, I know that it's not about the triviality.

I might start with "Why the fuck is this road closed now when I'm already late to my doctor appointment?" but within 5 seconds I'm at "I can't think around X symptom" and in another 5 seconds I'm at "I melt down because my father was autistic and HE used to melt down and .... "

I could go on with that last part for pages and pages; I have, thousands of times. And I've been at this point several times a week for months, as I'm dealing with multiple non-trivial stressors (surgeries, months in the hospital, my mom dying, etc). And I thought I WASN'T supposed to be looking at the past or asking why?

I'm so confused.

And I don't mean to "intellectualize." I honestly don't. I'm sorry.

───────────

I was just getting ready to post just now when I noticed the later paragraphs of an article I referred to above, and it sounds relevant to my situation:

As Dr John Sarno’s TMS theory gained validation through further research in Neuroscience and Neuroplastic Pain ... Pain Reprocessing Therapy was developed by the Pain Psychology Center, which is run by Alan Gordon, a key figure in the field of Neuroplastic Pain, who has trialled the approach with great success...

I like to think of PRT as a branch of the TMS (Tension Myoneural Syndrome / MindBody Syndrome) approach. This specific aspect focuses on working with the brain’s neuroplasticity in order to teach the brain how to ‘unlearn’ the pain response...

Pain Reprocessing Therapy versus Emotional Release: Traditionally, the focus of the TMS/MindBody Syndrome approach has been on exploring any repressed emotions, traumatic experiences or stressors that have led to pain onset.

This is where techniques like journaling and emotional release come in. For more information on this aspect, please refer to my article on TMS and Emotional Repression.

Yet in PRT, the emphasis is on how on changing the way that one has learnt to respond and react to the pain itself.

This is because those people who are already aware of what triggered the pain in the first place, and who feel that their trauma has been resolved may still find it difficult to step out of Neuroplastic pain due to the conditioning process that has taken hold.

In my opinion, both elements need to be addressed in order for someone to recover completely from chronic pain. PRT on its own will help reduce and eliminate symptoms, but if there is still any strong emotional turmoil going on, it is likely for the sufferer to experience a different symptom, or to re-experience the symptom.

It’s always best to tackle the root cause of chronic pain, which in my opinion is twofold: 1) the emotional state that led to the pain onset and 2) the central sensitization and hypersensitivity that may occur due to the way we respond to pain.
​

I will investigate that tomorrow.

 

Ok, well, I don't follow any of the post Sarno practitioners. So I don't know anything about that.
Here's to wishing you well.

PS. Personally I think all anyone needs is Sarno and like @Baseball65 says - read the book and re-read the book and re-read it again.
It seems like you and probably thousands of others are getting themselves confused unnecessarily.

"PRT, the emphasis is on how on changing the way that one has learnt to respond and react to the pain itself."
Umm, well, if you want to go with this approach I will wish you good luck. Nothing I'm interested in and doesn't make much sense to me.

Good luck, Skylark. I think you are making things harder on yourself than it needs to be but I also realize that you are trying and frustrated and doing your best. I'd recommend re-reading all the above posts when you are in a moment where you feel ready to take it in and try not to be defensive or rationalize why it doesn't apply to you or how you've already tried it.

 

I agree with @JanAtheCPA re your posting about the '5 Whys', @Booble. I'd never heard of it and I just tried it and found that it is really good at getting to the core of things. I'm going to journal using it. So glad you posted about this!

 

This is almost identical to the way I process my life when I am having symptoms and stuck. I learned it from the 4th step in AA, but stripped of the verbosity, it is really this simple.
THEN I can compile a list of things that only I know about me (Like Mom's opinions) and use that as a guide when 'new' stuff comes up.

We used to do this 'Why?' for Fears too and almost every single one ends up with 'the unknown' or 'being alone' and those are terrifying to the child.

When I have had problems it is not because I can't remember some elaborate mental construct (my Ego loves those). It is because I have forgotten how simple , shallow and mean I am. (mean as in Average).

It is not about finding answers...it is about simple questions. When I am stuck , I just haven't gotten to the right question yet. My ego likes to block it, because it means I am not a hyperdynamic, special intellectual...I am just a knuckle head who wants his bills paid, my dog well and the wolf a few feet further from my door.

Last summer a forum member helped me find the right question. I was mad that my GF finally stopped watching my dog even though we'd been broken up for over a year!....not because of HER, but because now I had no one to watch my dog when I went to play baseball, so I FELT good about leaving her (the dog) alone...pretty shallow. Pretty selfish. I knew it was correct when I finally 'got there' and the pain left immediately. So simple it was scary how complicated my mind wished it to be.

That PRT reminds me of 'outcome independence' . I read that whole thing here on the forum and it has never worked for me. I learned early on from a mentor to always inspect my motives. They are never as lofty or complex as I wish they were. The Only motive I had for reading Sarno is to GET OUT OF PAIN...period.

a lot of new age types might acknowledge that pain is psychological, but I need a simple and straight ahead solution and Sarno has given me that for 25 years.

Anger, anger, Rage, shame (which makes me mad) and a little more Anger. Maybe a touch of loneliness, which makes me angry.

 

@JanAtheCPA @Booble @Baseball65 -Wow, I’m learning something here! I had no idea you guys weren’t that big on PRT. I’ve been promoting it right and left. And even been somewhat drawn to it because my symptoms “seem” to be so stubborn. But another Surprise for me came from Jan in this thread, “a few months in the wiki is no time at all.” So though I have been battling TMS semi successfully for 30 years. I’ve never really tackled all that needs to be tackled. Yet. Haven’t been at it long with your help on the wiki. Since you guys have healed so many times I am always wanting your advice. And I will keep applying what you’re saying. And trusting. There has to be a way to learn to unlock myself.

I will say this to @Skylark7. I feel your frustration and even not wanting to live with your symptom. This makes you want to find a magic bullet. And fast! ME TOO!!! I am all over the wiki seeking just that. And instead I am getting this composite message of needing patience, needing yet more introspection, needing therapy (so exhausted from it), needing self love (I am threadbare on that). I hope you can find peace, Skylark. Just give up fighting it. Don’t try and figure it out anymore. That’s what we have to do. @Cactusflower says repeatedly that she has learned to live with pain and still be happy. @Ellen said to me just yesterday to live my best life now. With symptoms. Love myself anyway. I almost wanted to scream! What?!!! How?!!! But it has haunted me. I believe it must be possible. I just haven’t learned it yet. This quest is not what we think it is, Skylark. It’s about US. Learning US. We have to go in. On a daily basis.

 

Love this! And the 5 whys.

 

So basic! It’s so hard to believe how basic. Because it’s scary to allow myself to feel these true selfish feelings. What will happen? Will I melt? Will I die? No. I might lose my TMS though.

Current example for me. Yesterday. My son invited “us” over for Father’s Day. But I was too afraid to go because I’ve never been to his new house and I needed a walker. So I encouraged my husband to go without me. My husband didn’t want to but I pushed it. My son was thrilled. He wanted just a boys day, he said. I was bizarrely cheerful all day. Isn’t this special?! The boys are bonding. I love this! Then last night I played games on my phone incessantly. During the night, I woke up with night terrors and pain. Screaming.

this morning it was so obvious! Number one: if I would have journaled, I would have known. But instead, I avoided my feelings. I was mad at myself for being too afraid to do things. It’s so hard! I was pissed I was left out. I am pissed about even more when it comes to my oldest son. He sometimes reminds me of my ex (his dad) who was very cruel. I have so so many feelings of rage and frustration. It feels bottomless. My parents were cruel. And that’s even more rage. And there you have it: and that’s only 3 whys. Two more might be- why did’nt they love me? Am I unlovable? These are and were Unbearable feelings. So I avoid them. My body holds them for me. And now at this sweet age of 65, I am struggling to walk under the load. That also makes me mad. Yet I’m mostly intellectually mad. I can’t feel it. Right now writing this, I feel nothing. THIS is where my work lies. I deleted the games off my phone.

 

I know that some people have got better using Alan Gordon's PRT or credited their recovery to PRT, but my guess is that those people also probably read at least one book by Dr Sarno first, so the foundations had already been laid for recovery and PRT may act as an adjunct. In his book 'The Way Out' Alan Gordon writes about a son of his mother's friend having recovered from back pain from reading a book. Alan Gordon's mother then bought him the same book but he rejected it and threw it across the room, but finally he did read it about a year later. He wrote that the book didn't help him, but nevertheless he went on to do mind/body work and lost his back pain. Alan Gordon never says what the book was that his mother gave him, but my guess is that it was Healing Back Pain by Dr Sarno.

 

Same. And then what?

 

I healed using Sarno and Schubiner before PRT was a thing. However, when I read about PRT, I realized I had used a version of it that was in a guided meditation from another practitioner. I found it beneficial, though not enough to lead to a full recovery by itself. I was able to get rid of a full-blown migraine using that guided meditation, and so it reinforced the concept that my pain was psychological and not the result of some purely physiological disease process. So I think it can have value as part of recovery.

 

PRT is the technique coined and used by Alan Gordon, Howard Schubiner and related practitioners yeah. It's a less emotionally focused (though not exclusively; Schubiner explicitly uses expressive writing in his work like Sarno discussed) POV on TMS which focuses on pain being a learned habit sustained by fear/obsession versus being a communication of unconscious emotion. Both acknowledge that pain does root from these emotions, but the "work" to eliminate it is more habit-oriented than emotional.

Although the SEP here is PRT in a nutshell (it covers the standard trappings like somatic tracking, etc.) the forum generally leans more towards the old-school emotional discovery lens of TMS treatment - which there's nothing wrong with, I'm just chiming in to answer you. You haven't misunderstood anything, it's just that a lot of the forum regulars kind of don't use/care/whatever that much about PRT and the newer forks of TMS treatment because... well basically, they think Sarno's emotional model works as is, and that's grand.

This is still the forum for you, it's the only populated forum for TMS-ers generally by the looks of it... but just know that the "newer model", so to speak, has less of a footing here so people might be less familiar with it.

 

Different tools work for different people IMO. If you feel a strong pull to it, give some of its techniques a go (with an attitude of lightness, etc. Don't TMS about TMS!) and see how you find it. Everything in the space has its proponents and detractors, from journalling to meditation to deliberate challenging of symptoms... etc. What makes this very open, but also frustrating, is that there are many lenses to view it through and things to try!

 

This is VERY helpful. Thank you so much.

 

Great!
It's a business solving problem tool that was developed by Mr. Toyota, founder of Toyota Motors, from Japan.