Questions of psychological issues after TMS cure (physical symptoms gone)

L

louaci

Well known member
Dear community members, I would like to share my story and see if anybody has similar experience. My partner suffered from terrible back and neck pain for years and tried everything but didn't work. My friend told me about Dr. Sarno's books last year and I convinced my partner to read them. It was amazing transformation for him, all pain has gone. He applied similar principles to eliminate allergies, colds, whatever physical symptoms he used to suffer due to his good understanding of medical knowledge and Dr. Sarno's books. However, he still struggles emotionally. He hates misbehaving children and he is anxious and rageful whenever kids misbehaves. He tried coherent psycho therapy for a few months now, but it doesn't seem to work very well. I think we have a very good understanding of why he feels this way from his childhood, stressful work and family life etc. We have tried to eliminate those stress factors over the past year and I have also changed my attitude and be as supportive and understanding as I can. It seems like that in the process of eliminating physical symptoms (perfectly healthy middle-aged man with flat abs with minimal efforts due to the amazing brain power), his emotion states towards kids (we have a wonderful 7-year old who does typical 7-year old things, laugh, tantrums, whining, but at the end of the day still wants you to tug him to bed) are basically like a 10-year old big brother. He also finds resonance in Dr. Sarno's personal stories, who left the first wife and three kids and started a new family, and who was always misunderstood by the mainstream. I still think we could work it out but a lot of times I feel I am the only adult handling the kid and this could be exhausting. I am not sure what to do and want to hear your opinions regarding that. I wonder whether this emotion states could be changed. If so, what actions could help ? Thank you.
 
Hi louaci,

I think I know what you mean. Maybe he has complex PTSD. Maybe he was bullied by kids when he was a child. Or something else happened to him, I don't know. I'm talking about your husband. I'm not sure...I'm just speculating here.

Read this, page 10 and 11 of the document, see below. Your husband might have some sort of emotional flashbacks. Or triggers. I think it might help him (and you) to understand the issue. And then, after understanding - to do his best to react in a different way. It's going to take some time and understanding and patience for both of you.

I'm not sure if my take on this is accurate, it might be or not. But my gut feeling tells me to share this link here.

Take care.

https://pete-walker.com/pdf/emotionalFlashbackManagement.pdf
 
First of all, I will say, I am not a psychologist. However, I have experience dealing with populations who need emotional assistance, and neurodiverse populations.
My first comment is that you should encourage your partner to join this forum and find autonomy in seeking assistance for themselves. There is a huge component to TMS that makes a person feel powerless, and part of overcoming symptoms, dealing with personality and with inner and emotional life is feeling a sense of power over the challenges that we face. Does your partner even feel that this is a challenge, or are they totally fine with themselves. If they are fine with these issues you mention, than it's not their problem - it's yours. Something to think about.

If he is anxious and rageful, then perhaps re-reading Sarno, who talks about inner UNRECOGNIZED rage as the source of our pain (and symptoms which include anxiety and being stuck in mindsets like anger). Many types of psychological schools don't really touch on the subconscious, unconscious or even unrecognized rage and how all of these things feel in the body. They focus on how you THINK about those things, not really the emotions which are physical sensations in the body.

1) Journal - if your partner hasn't engaged in journaling then perhaps they might like to give it a try. Nicole Sach's journalspeak is a method of journaling which combines private emotional expression and then an emotional/mental calming and acceptance of those emotions. Here's how: https://www.thecureforchronicpain.com/journalspeak (How to JournalSpeak — The Cure for Chronic Pain) They may even find resonance with her story, which includes back pain and the revelation that her inner, deepest emotional life made her brain think she was horribly angry and resentful at her children. This is of course not really true! She loves her children, but the anger and deep seated fear in her mind was that she didn't love them - it ties into her upbringing. Letting out all those emotions and all of the nonsensical "shit" that was deep down helped set her free. Does she occasional have symptoms...yes. But she has a method of which to suss out the source and they resolve.

2) Have them read Claire Weekes book "Hope and Help For Your Nerves" - it's a funny, old fashioned little book but it truly has the answers for dealing with anxiety written by a Doctor who experienced the symptoms herself.

3) Some people are resistant to the journaling. Their brains just can't get there. Currently, TMS practitioners suggest using EMDR, ISDTP or ISF as psychological tools. They all utilize the mind body connection and help the person connect feelings in the body that they may not be either recognizing or may be repressing and teach the patient to allow them to be physically expressed in the moment. This is simply emotional regulation. Each style focuses on different areas: EMDR uses the sensations of left and right as calming tools to allow the mind to better organize information so that it doesn't seem to present as being "unsafe" (eg. current moments that the brain relates to past moments). ISDTP allows the patient to recognize that most moments of our life and our emotions are physically represented and not to be feared. ISF takes a look at each and every part of our makeup and helps us accept ourselves and our feelings. Dr. Schubiner offers another method which is also said to be successful but as of yet, there isn't anything written about it - and I don't think they have a list of practitioners who use the method yet.

3) Take the ACES quiz and see if your partner can find even subtle instances in their childhood that may have created anxiety and trauma - from maximum to even minimal trauma. Take the test as if you are looking through the eyes of your childhood self. It is simply a tool to see where the reactions might come from.

5) Meditation: every person needs to find a way to chill out. Meditation separates our brain machinations from our true self and is settling - especially for someone with an anxious and busy mind. Just "being" without any kind need to think and fulfill our tenancies to things like perfectionism (which is partly what might be going on here...partner has a problem with accepting children who aren't perfectly behaving and somehow he feels this reflects upon himself). Making sure partner (and yourself!) have time to play and do things that don't have any relation to eg. self-worth, appearance, responsibility etc.

6) Just from what you describe, as a LAST case scenario if all other avenues (after months or even a year or two of doing any one of the above) have exhausted themselves, look into an autism assessment. Many people who find themselves in difficult mindsets are simply neurodivergent and knowing this can bring a lot of peace, and a more open minded look at how to tackle the issues it presents. To a small degree, you can even begin to bring in some tools that might give you hints. When angry, and frustrated try giving your partner (and perhaps the child) a small squeezy ball (dollar store!) to squish. See if that feels physically calming, or stimulating, or mind clearing... It's going to take a few minutes to notice any possible effects and probably will take some time for the persons to discern what if anything it may be offering them.

Lastly, ELIMINATING stress is not allowing the person to learn to deal with stress. It's allowing the person to think that avoiding stress is the only option for emotional regulation. This is something the two of you should talk about. Yes, when there is stress you get symptoms which can be anxiety, anger, or physical sensations. You deal with the inner stress (it's not just about childhood, it's about how these things make you feel about yourself now, in present day) by utilizing tools you've learned work for you, and then the symptoms begin to fade. This is normal, it's just the interpersonal tools each person uses vary.

Again, please encourage your partner to join us and ask questions. They need a private space to be able to express their own desire for assistance. It's fantastic you are so supportive and a wonderful advocate, but it's really up to your partner to deal with this stuff themselves. Dr. David Hanscom a TMS practitioner discusses in detail how important this aspect is. It's about changing the brain's values from possible perceived victimhood (again, the conscious mind might not even know this is happening) to having power over your own brain and mind.

The challenges are actually fairly simply to work with, it's just finding the correct tool to make a path forward that is needed.
 
Thank you for your replies. I will let my partner know about this. He is aware of this forum but may not look into it in details. He is a very gentle and sensitive person in nature and holds himself in high standard in treating others respectfully and courteously. He teaches our kid about the brain power and the kiddo could eliminate cold or belly symptoms within a day. It makes my partner very mad if others are rude and inconsiderate, which a child does quite often. He does detailed journaling and is aware of his emotional issues but is frustrated to find ways to overcome that. He was brought up by emotionally immature divorced parents with complex family dynamics though with solid middle-class lifestyles (lack of secured attachment), and later chose a highly rigid and stressful profession that forced him to face the most raw and negative emotions of human beings almost daily, followed by fundamental value and lifestyle clashes with the live-in in-laws due to covid confinement. I also added to his stress a couple of years ago due to my insecurity and lack of boundaries with my parents. It sounds like first world problems when we don't have to worry about putting food on the table due to our thrifty lifestyles and careful planning. I just want to make our lives happier especially with the great discovery of Dr. Sarno's knowledge.
 
I'm someone who eliminated severe TMS fairly easily over 10 years ago, but I still struggle with the effects of childhood trauma and complex PTSD. So I'm an example of how you can get rid of TMS, but still need to work on the other stuff. I was never able to benefit from therapy, because I was too well defended psychologically to let anyone else in. I always minimized my childhood trauma and clammed up in talk therapy. I used self-help techniques to recover from TMS, and have found that to be the best strategy for working on my childhood trauma and C-PTSD, as well.

Most beneficial to me in that regard is the work of Dr. Nicole LePera. She has a book out called How to Do the Work and a journal to go along with it. But even more helpful than her books are her posts on social media. She is listed under @theholisticpsychologist on Twitter, Facebook, and Instagram. She is very skilled at communicating the theory behind trauma and C-PTSD in easy to understand language and terms. She also has a great podcast on YouTube called the Self-Healer's Soundboard. I've benefited from her work immensely.

As recommended above, it would be good for your husband to take the ACE's quiz. I score a 6, which is pretty severe. But there is hope. He is lucky to have such a caring partner.
 
Cactusflower said:
ELIMINATING stress is not allowing the person to learn to deal with stress.
Click to expand...

So, when I FIRST read Sarno and got better, I got so terrified of repressing anything, that I almost got into fist fights at work So, now that I had all of this anger sitting at the top, I had to 'deal' with it. Obviously if I kept going with my 'respond to every feeling immediately' I was going to end up fired and in Jail....so I went and got some help for anger. My Therapist said I was his most motivated patient. I didn't want to lose my family, kids, wife, job etc...

As @Cactusflower points out, punting on responsibility isn't recovering. It is a personal awareness of the nature of your being; not allowing our 'inner child' to manifest constantly at the expense of others. If your partner thinks that is what it takes, he is seriously misunderstanding Sarno. He will also relapse and be confused, because , as also previously stated, it is UNCONSCIOUS anger that causes TMS so consciously becoming childlike isn't going to do much over the long haul.

Many people read Sarno and have a fast resolution of their pain and then get the 'sophomore slump' as they didn't digest the part about the Unconscious....That is a HUMBLING experience because it is an admission that we don't really know what is going on, just a general idea...All of our recovery strategies are about raising our awareness, not about becoming stress free. To quote Sarno, "If that were necessary, my recovery rate would be zero"
 
I am in the same situation as Ellen. I'm much better now regarding pain but I'm working on the emotional stuff. I didn't know I repressed so much in my unconscious. It is humbling indeed.

I did lots of psychotherapy and it helped but I'm using my own tools now. Meditation, art, working out, a type of journaling, spending time in nature etc. It's rather new for me all this process, managing the emotions, especially anger.

I got rather aggressive a few times and I'm the calm, funny and laid-back type. I had big problems reacting like Baseball mentioned in his comment. I was on the verge of divorce a few times in the past two years or so. My husband wants his sweet, at peace wife and I understand. I don't want to lose my husband or friends. I got rid of some acquaintances and other nasty relationships. I have no guilt anymore.

I'm working on all this s#&t and I will not give up. It takes a lifetime, I guess...

I appreciate the comments here, they are very helpful. Thanks.
 
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It's easy to mix up emotional repression and emotional suppression. Emotional repression is an unconscious process that can lead to TMS. Emotional suppression is when we consciously suppress our emotions because it is beneficial to getting along with people, as @Baseball65 describes so well above.
 
My partner took the ACE test and scored 7, and I scored 1. However, I am a little confused by the definition of "often" or "very often" before 18th birthday. Does that mean it occurred daily, weekly, monthly, several times a year or several times over a couple of years? I could remember several times when I was punished severely before 7th grade, but almost none after that. The punishment was typically spanking and harsh scolding for me (Asian family style: beating makes good kids), but the next day was OK. Does anybody have an opinion about the definitions of "often" or "very often" in the ACE test? Thank you.
 
@louaci
Look at it from the perspective of being a small child. What did it feel like to be punished at that age, and did it feel like it was all the time, or did it really seem like it was just once or twice. That's how you look at it. Keep looking at everything through the lens of a pre-7th grader. I found this made a huge difference in my own ACE's score. If I look at it as the adult I am today, I tend to rationalize and forgive my parents because now I know more about their own struggles.
Your partner's score is very high. With that in mind, perhaps your partner might benefit from seeing a TMS psychologist. This is someone like I mentioned above - who understands the mind/body connection but you may need someone who can also help him apply the TMS principals to his own specific needs. Some specify they are TMS coaches only (not qualified psychotherapists), some are also qualified psychotherapists. The PPDA association has a list of qualified practitioners and you can search for the type you need. Most will offer telehealth if you can't find someone locally.
Trauma and severe trauma is a whole other layer to work thought with TMS and emotional symptoms.
My own challenges had my psychotherapist explain that this kind of work is like peeling layers from an onion. You might find yourself feeling that you are OK and don't need extra help for awhile and then you get to a point where you just need some assistance to get to the next level of healing.

https://ppdassociation.org/directory (Directory — Psychophysiologic Disorders Association)
 
LOL, once again, @Cactusflower and I are writing and posting together - there may be some overlap in my response, which is:

Don't overthink it @louaci! If you go back and read the NPR article, you'll understand that these ten questions do nothing more than provide a starting point to explore the mental, emotional and physical symptoms that an individual might be experiencing as an adult. If this exercise results in you recognizing that those instances of childhood punishment still have significance for you, then you have just uncovered an opportunity to explore your own past and how your own inner child feels about your parents at a deeper and more rageful level than has occurred to you before now. Go for it!
 
louaci said:
Dear community members, I would like to share my story and see if anybody has similar experience. My partner suffered from terrible back and neck pain for years and tried everything but didn't work. My friend told me about Dr. Sarno's books last year and I convinced my partner to read them. It was amazing transformation for him, all pain has gone. He applied similar principles to eliminate allergies, colds, whatever physical symptoms he used to suffer due to his good understanding of medical knowledge and Dr. Sarno's books. However, he still struggles emotionally. He hates misbehaving children and he is anxious and rageful whenever kids misbehaves. He tried coherent psycho therapy for a few months now, but it doesn't seem to work very well. I think we have a very good understanding of why he feels this way from his childhood, stressful work and family life etc. We have tried to eliminate those stress factors over the past year and I have also changed my attitude and be as supportive and understanding as I can. It seems like that in the process of eliminating physical symptoms (perfectly healthy middle-aged man with flat abs with minimal efforts due to the amazing brain power), his emotion states towards kids (we have a wonderful 7-year old who does typical 7-year old things, laugh, tantrums, whining, but at the end of the day still wants you to tug him to bed) are basically like a 10-year old big brother. He also finds resonance in Dr. Sarno's personal stories, who left the first wife and three kids and started a new family, and who was always misunderstood by the mainstream. I still think we could work it out but a lot of times I feel I am the only adult handling the kid and this could be exhausting. I am not sure what to do and want to hear your opinions regarding that. I wonder whether this emotion states could be changed. If so, what actions could help ? Thank you.
Click to expand...

Congratulations on your partner for having such great success with his physical symptoms using Sarno/TMS principles.

This might sound harsh but it sounds a lot like you are very upset/angry with him and that you have been driving the bus for him in all this rather than it coming from him. You found Sarno, "we" have done this and that. It sounds like you might have a lot of anger tucked away as well and might benefit from some Sarno work to get in touch with that too. Maybe if he felt like it wasn't just him that has to be "fixed" that he might be able to release more of his hidden emotions. Maybe they aren't even that hidden.

To the question at hand --- Your partner doesn't have patience for misbehaving children. (It's interesting that you used the word "hate.")
I'm going to bet there is more to this. Perhaps what he really feels and is afraid to communicate (or to admit to himself?) that he feels like your parenting style is not preventing the misbehaving. I understand what you are saying that it's normal kid behavior and he simply hates hit, but he might have grown up with different style of parenting or have his own beliefs on parenting.

From a TMS perspective, there certainly is plenty to explore but I think this is likely going to be something that is not tucked down deep.
He doesn't like the noise. He doesn't like the kids acting out. And he probably wishes you would try harder to stop it or keep it away from him rather than pass it off as his problem.

Side note: My husband is very similar to your partner. We don't have kids (not by choice but that is how things turned out for medical reasons) and we often talk about how it was probably the best thing for us that we didn't.
 
Bingo, @Booble! The way you put this made that final connection for me, the thing that's been unconsciously bothering me all along. This whole issue regarding the parenting style of @louaci's partner is surely connected to her own unresolved issues regarding how her parents punished her at the same age.

@louaci, this is good work! If you can work on this issue as a joint project, where you are both doing the work, you'll make progress. Therapy for both of you, individually and as a couple, is probably the way to accomplish this.
 
Ellen said:
I used self-help techniques to recover from TMS, and have found that to be the best strategy for working on my childhood trauma and C-PTSD, as well.

Most beneficial to me in that regard is the work of Dr. Nicole LePera. She has a book out called How to Do the Work and a journal to go along with it. But even more helpful than her books are her posts on social media. She is listed under @theholisticpsychologist on Twitter, Facebook, and Instagram. She is very skilled at communicating the theory behind trauma and C-PTSD in easy to understand language and terms. She also has a great podcast on YouTube called the Self-Healer's Soundboard. I've benefited from her work immensely.
Click to expand...
Ellen, I scored a 6 on the ACE test, too. And I have C-PTSD. I’m very excited to get this tip. I’m going to check these resources out! Thank you!
 
Sita said:
My husband wants his sweet, at peace wife and I understand.
Click to expand...
Sita, my husband was just saying how angry I’ve gotten lately. I’ve been journaling a lot. Anger was alien to me. Now it’s out of the box. I guess we will have to learn how to manage it from scratch. I think little kids normally learn this early, but I didn’t.
 
Cactusflower said:
You might find yourself feeling that you are OK and don't need extra help for awhile and then you get to a point where you just need some assistance to get to the next level of healing.
Click to expand...
Cactusflower,
Sage advice! Im just feeling really exhausted lately from all my therapy. I want to rest from it! But onion layers do keep coming. I would like a phase of going slower and just doing my own thing.
 
Booble said:
Congratulations on your partner for having such great success with his physical symptoms using Sarno/TMS principles.

This might sound harsh but it sounds a lot like you are very upset/angry with him and that you have been driving the bus for him in all this rather than it coming from him. You found Sarno, "we" have done this and that. It sounds like you might have a lot of anger tucked away as well and might benefit from some Sarno work to get in touch with that too. Maybe if he felt like it wasn't just him that has to be "fixed" that he might be able to release more of his hidden emotions. Maybe they aren't even that hidden.

To the question at hand --- Your partner doesn't have patience for misbehaving children. (It's interesting that you used the word "hate.")
I'm going to bet there is more to this. Perhaps what he really feels and is afraid to communicate (or to admit to himself?) that he feels like your parenting style is not preventing the misbehaving. I understand what you are saying that it's normal kid behavior and he simply hates hit, but he might have grown up with different style of parenting or have his own beliefs on parenting.

From a TMS perspective, there certainly is plenty to explore but I think this is likely going to be something that is not tucked down deep.
He doesn't like the noise. He doesn't like the kids acting out. And he probably wishes you would try harder to stop it or keep it away from him rather than pass it off as his problem.

Side note: My husband is very similar to your partner. We don't have kids (not by choice but that is how things turned out for medical reasons) and we often talk about how it was probably the best thing for us that we didn't.
Click to expand...


Yes, I am angry and sad with him being this way with our child and blame the child's misbehavior for his anxiety and rage. That is clearly communicated to him. He admitted that too when he was calm. We both want to find out why he reacted this way but there were no clear answers (maybe insecure attachment, PTSD from work and close families, self-criticism, inner conflicts etc.). I too am being transformed by Dr. Sarno's books and other psychology books. There is a still a lot to learn for sure. I was an over-protective and nagging parent a couple years ago and was constantly frustrated in correcting the child and sometimes resolved to yelling, time-outs or even spanking. This year, after a lot of learning, I could confidently say that I could handle the kid pretty well. He behaves perfect at school, afterschool or other outside venues. He sometimes whines and throws a tantrum at home but could be calmed relatively easily. I saw all the kids around (school, after school, neighbor etc.) and got feedback from different teachers/parents and they all said that he was one of the best behaved for his age group and well-adjusted with people, yet he still managed to anger my partner in a way that took days to recover. The books said when you are angry, you are reacting to something internally than externally. We really want to find out what the internal factors are and ways to change the mindset and eventually the behavior.

The hardest part for me is that when I realize I am the only one reliable (functionally and emotionally) for our child and I have nobody to rely on if I need a break and recharge for a while. We are alienated from both our families since last year to work on our own issues (my partner is local but not very close with his own parents or other extended families). I have some friends and a far-away cousin in the US but as an immigrant myself, I still feel somewhat isolated in the US. My partner could storm out when being upset, because I am here to take care of the child. If anything happens to me, he might put the child for adoption (a joke maybe but very sad). His anger would last for a few days when I calmly handled the situation, and his continued negative emotions towards our child were what really upset me. His negative emotions would generate some symptoms and he could eliminate those by reading Dr. Sarno. It is hard on me and the child, and also very hard on him. He didn't like to feel that way either. He would thank me for being supportive and I would explain to our child that Daddy needed time to recover from his emotions.

What inspired me about Dr. Sarno was that despite he was being shunned from the mainstream medical community and his own personal life struggles, it didn't seem to stop him from doing what he loved. He was well aware of his own emotions but didn't seem to be dominated by the emotions. My partner echoed Dr. Sarno's mistreatment, but he still is very self-conscious about pursuing what he loves to do. I could support as much as I could, but at the end of the day, it is ultimately up to him to take his own actions.
 
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