Spondylolisthesis and bilateral nerve pain

View attachment 1968 Hey everyone,

I’m a 24-year-old . In 2022, I was diagnosed with L4/L5 Grade 1 isthmic spondylolisthesis and sciatica. I also have a congenital L5-S1 fusion. My father has the same condition but is asymptomatic. However, mine is considered unstable (moves in flexion-extension but doesn’t change grade).

I always felt something was off with my back after losing weight (I was overweight as a child and bullied for it), but the pain started after a friend hung from my shoulders playfully. A spine surgeon recommended fusion, but I avoided it. I went to a sports PT, who did forceful spinal manipulations, which I now regret. I also underwent traction (25 kg for 3 days), after which my leg went numb. Despite consistently doing core exercises, sitting and walking still hurt ,legs are weak, and I can’t afford more PT. My MRI shows no progression, but I can’t shake the fear that those stupid manipulations may have worsened my instability.

I’ve had a rough past continues today—domestic abuse, family struggles,rejection from people I liked, bullying, loss of loved ones, and extreme stress and also pressure of being always good and a top guy in whatever I do studies etc and much more beyond the scope of mentioning in this forum. Now I’m wondering if TMS could be contributing to my pain. But my mind keeps asking for one last flexion-extension X-ray to confirm that my spondylolisthesis hasn’t worsened due to those manipulations before I fully accept the TMS diagnosis.

Should I go for the X-ray or move forward with TMS? I feel stuck and would appreciate any advice.
Thanks.

 

Hello and welcome!
Firstly, I will ask you to please remove your X-ray photo. We do not talk about your medical condition or read or look at any diagnostics. It’s both an invasion of your privacy and we are not doctors or specialists, just fellow TMS folks.
I love that you did discuss your background, mindset, etc and that this is stressful.
I have a similar upbringing (without domestic abuse. My abuse was subtle mental/emotional abuse). Bullied and teased, smart but with learning disabilities, rejected by many. I too was diagnosed with spondylolisthesis, and have had at least 40 other symptoms including anxiety.

May I ask how you found TMS? Have you read a book by Dr. Sarno?
Are you familiar with Nichole Sachs? A patient turned colleague of Dr. Sarno who has the same symptom. If not, her first book, outlining her journey to being chronic pain free is worth a read
“ The Meaning Of Truth”. She discusses normal abnormalities, and how it is anxiety, fear and rage that fuel the TMS beast and how the symptom is both the communication tool, and distraction to your inner pain.

Having more knowledge will help you make your own decisions about how to proceed. It’s up to you to figure out your path, and it can’t be a foot in both worlds. You need to commit to your own support and wellness to empower yourself. Dr. Sarno’s first line of treatment was always knowledge, so you feel you can firmly make up your mind.

 

Hello thank you. Believe it or not I have been avid reader I don't know how I found it but I have keen interest in biology, neurology all those stuff. I once aspired to be a neurosurgeon, but truth to be told covid happened and I got burned out and changed my career path to be a software engineer. So I had this "mind over back pain book" But I never read it because I thought it's not something for me since I don't have back pain I have freaking nerve pain and weakness and I may be paralyzed . In general I have started getting into this seriously in last 1 week. Perhaps I have a super active brain so to calm it down I need to do more work.

 

My neurosurgeon was the person who said I have a bunch of things "wrong" with my back, and that lots of people do, and have no pain. He said that the things seen on my scans were not something that should cause pain.
I was one of the lucky ones. He is very famous for back surgeries.
It's great you've read Mind Over Back Pain. I have not read that particular book so I'm not sure what advice Sarno gives in that book. Nerve pain can change. I normally have none anymore, and 2 years ago, what I labeled as nerve pain was so excruciating I was bed ridden.
A busy mind is a sign of anxiety. I think it's important to acknowledge that anxiety exists. It's a normal function of the human existence, and doing this work can help you teach your mind when it's function is appreciated, and when you don't need to fall into anxious habits of thought. Your overactive/overthinking mind is also a sign of a hyper alert nervous system. It's all interconnected.
For anxiety, and that busy mind, any book by Claire Weekes is so helpful. Best of all she gives exact and explicit direction to begin calming that anxiety and busy mind.
I'm sure you've discovered that the ideas behind TMS kind of fly in the face of what was once thought was known about biology, neurology and neurosurgery. It's a big leap!
Enjoy the journey!

 

Yes I get depressed more often and also expect quick results so my mind hyper analyzes things. My biggest flare up came during loss of my grandfather (a personal tragedy), my initiation to my spondylolisthesis (aka something wrong with me) when I thought I have to take responsibility now on and have to work like a maniac.now I am anxious about new job that's coming (will my spine hurt? But surely I have to bend in a certain way? How can I sit with this? If there is a severe sciatica will I be carried in a ambulance to home? Also will I be able to hangout? Spondylolisthesis means walking difficult so how many steps before pain kicks in? a standing desk right? ... All these things are of the mind. So THANK YOU I will check claire weekes out. For me even if I understand tms I think it's much more important for hyper active brain individual like me who can analyze much more complex stuff to put it into mind. So you have tms but you have more than others because you think too much.
Also I think one reason my brain analyzes so fast is because I have been exposed to fear of my life since as little as 3-4 year old. So for me everything becomes existential.

 

You think your thoughts run at the speed of light? Mine are ridiculous. I still get all sorts of repetitive negative thoughts. They are human default.
Your nervous system right now is simply constantly scanning for threat. You are thinking that everything is a threat. One of Claire Weekes greatest lessons is that thoughts are just thoughts. They aren't real, they aren't true. Worry and ruminations are thoughts....
So even thought my mind runs at hyper speed, I don't believe the crap it churns out anymore. I am constantly laughing to myself at all the junk it thinks up.
You are in the loop of fear upon fear (Weekes will talk about it), and you can reverse it.
You are absolutely right that this is a HABIT developed as a small child, but it's a habit you can break.
Part of doing this work is changing your mindset as to what is really going on.
I too got incredibly anxious because responsibility of certain types is a trigger for me. I still don't like these kinds of responsibilities but I recognize it's perfectionist personality traits, fear of failing others and getting punished mixed with never being able to succeed others expectations no matter how hard or how much I tried so you end up spinning on a wheel like a hamster. But recognizing this trait was trained into you and became a habit is a great way to flip your personal expectations of self-fulfilling failure around. People can break habits.
So how do you break that hyperactive brain habit: SLOWLY. Claire Weekes helps you begin to see the thought processes for what they are. Other ways are: meditation which can be challenging for a spinning mind, but it can be done. Going out for quiet walks in nature (or as close as you can get), breathing practice - 20 minutes of quiet sitting or laying with slightly longer exhales than inhales. You can also do this in microdoses during the day for calming reminders of how that breath effects the nervous system, qui gong or gentle tai chi (I use youtube videos, there's a TMS coach who offers free 5-10 minute practices who keeps folks with symptoms in mind), favorite sports like running, or baseball that keeps you focusing on the game and not on your performance, any outcome, any troubles or stress.
HAVE FUN! Even if it's hard right now, engage in things you've always loved. Eg. got more houseplants because I love gardening and I could do this on a higher surface. One of my TMS coaches began writing poetry, some folks play instruments, others go visit friends, read (which you love to do), or any other hobbies or activities. This can also encourage moving outside of the fear box you've created by keeping you occupied.
As @Baseball65 has recently said, when your symptoms become so boring compared to all the other things in your life, they start to fade away.

 

Oh, and here's Nicole's story:

 

Thanks funny thing is Nicole sachs came into my feed maybe META Knows I have a back problem so I get lot of recommended. I also saw one photo of her with her daughter how doctors told her that she would never have babies or something like that but here she is. I mostly thought that she like others might have lived with pain and managed it for most part. Secondly my brain is like just give me one last xray (I am so far assuring it that if those manipulation traction had done some damage you would not be walking ) . Mostly I have so many trauma if I journal them it would take them a whole 1000+ pages. Mostly I had some high moments but mostly my life is filled with rage, regret and sometimes existential. Everytime I write a page out of my life tears flow down my eyes and my mood goes out and pain comes in. There is a part of my brain that understands what is happening and needs help and another is shielding ,wants me to stay at home do nothing probably don't get hurt again.They are not necessarily at conflict at each other but they are at a race.

 

Hi @Abhi,
I know it can be terrifying to have leg numbness and weakness. (I have it.) The medical world can terrify you because they don’t focus on the mind-body connection. The longer you dabble there, the more doubt you will have to overcome. Your background points directly to TMS. Focus on moving forward and learning. The more you learn about TMS and healing, the more sure you will become. The journey won’t be easy! You have everything you need right here on the forum.

 

Thank you @Diana-M . So did mind body approach cured your weakness and pain?

 

Your fear and worry about journaling is typical for a TMS mind. You fear feeling the sensations of emotion, but are OK with thinking about those emotions (you know you are angry etc). There are many ways to deal with this, but avoidance is not one. Avoidance is what brought you to the space you are now in.
Do you need to journal it all? No
Do you need to re-live each moment? No
What you need to be able to do is accept and feel the feelings and know that it is absolutely normal to do feel them. You need to feel being heard by yourself! To be able to feel the self-compassion and love for yourself that made you a survivor.
A great way to do this is to write unsent letters. Start with people less involved in your trauma like the teacher who didn’t listen or the neighbor who turned a blind eye. Go softly and slowly and ease your way in, then just sit with that letter a few moments before tearing it up and tossing it. Do what you can when you can. Try a few days a week. You need to teach your mind that although at one time you were not safe in your situation, you are now an adult and safe with the emotions surrounding it all. Of course your mind is shielding you, that is exactly what the TMS mechanism does. It keeps you small and anxious. But it’s not you. You will learn to separate yourself from these things that are merely thoughts about yourself.
And as @Diana-M kindly points out, we are here right now in “yes but” land with excuses as to why you can’t start the work or make up your mind to commit to yourself. So this is the last time I answer this thread.
Do a little more reading, come back and let us know about what you read and what resonates with you now. You can do this.

 

Not yet, but I’m making progress!

 

Hi there, you mentioned you had 40 symptoms. Did you have any neck pain, accompanied by leg pain, weakness, tightening and muscle twitching? I'm worried I have something in my neck pressing on my spinal cord causing these symptoms.

 

Hi,
Get The MindBody Prescription by John Sarno. It’s a short book. In the beginning he explains all about how TMS deprives nerves of oxygen (mildly) , and it causes all the symptoms you have.

 

I have it and have read it. The problem is I dont know why my neck pain would cause this weird problem with my legs. One minute they are rigid and tight another they are weak with nerve pain and another I have all kinds of muscle spasms and it is all so random. All I think is there must be something seriously compressing my spinal cord to cause symptoms in my legs from my neck. I dont have back pain to tie that to my legs.

 

Your symptoms are TMS. It’s caused by your brain. You have to let go of looking for structural reasons. Reread your Sarno books. Take the structured educational program here on the wiki. It will help you accept that your TMS brain can cause these symptoms.

 

This is confirmed by many people on this forum: the weirder your symptoms are and the more of them you have, the more likely you have TMS.