Can we talk about ‘secondary gain’? (What are you maybe getting from having TMS)

[Diana-M]

This topic is on my mind: secondary gain. Having something to gain by having TMS.

First off, Dr. Sarno explicitly said TMS is not caused by trying to get out of doing something — secondary gain. But for me, I wonder. It seems like my TMS is getting me out of a bunch of things I’m super conflicted about. Problem solved. Can’t do it. I have TMS.

I recently heard an interview with @miffybunny and she said that TMSers will sometimes use their symptoms to “save” other people. This just RUNG in my ears. It really got my attention. And I’ve been thinking about it a lot. I think maybe i’m doing that, too.

Anybody else have experience or thoughts on this?

 

[Baseball65]

TMSers will sometimes use their symptoms to “save” other people

Huh? How?

If you read him carefully, Sarno didn't rule out secondary gain..99.9% of what we do is conditioned.
He discarded it because it presumed there was a 'real' something and that it was just conditioned into place. He said any elements of it were of little importance , because they aren't focused on the real problem.

I was in a chronic pain center and there were two different types..and I would say there was an 'element' of secondary gain, but most of my co-sufferers were either massive people pleasers OR Neurotic as all get out psychos . I actually remember I felt like I was 'letting my therapist down' because I liked him and he tried so hard to help me....that ANXIETY to please and my failed attempts to get better (anger) were the problem. Missing work for $1200 bucks a week (a lot of money in the nineties) and living off of $256 and watching 'oprah' was what 'secondary gain' implied I was enjoying.

Maybe I am cynical, but when I saw that other post about 'telling people about TMS' I kinda laughed. I Rarely if ever mention it and only to people who are desperate and have tried lots of stuff...a small minority. I am hyper conscientious, but not to the point of wasting time 'saving ' anybody....Only helping people who are desperate...like the people who end up here, and ultimately we are not saving anybody.. the truth is saving people and we are just passing on the fragment we have been given freely.

 

[Diana-M]

Hi, Marc,
Thanks for your thoughts!

He discarded it because it presumed there was a 'real' something and that it was just conditioned into place

What does this mean?

most of my co-sufferers were either massive people pleasers OR Neurotic as all get out psychos

I think I’m both, so THAT explains it!

my impression of what Rita said is that there could be a complex scenario. Let’s say, you don’t want to upset your son because you can’t stand who he married and it stresses you out. So you just make it so you can’t walk and go over and visit. And then you also aren’t a bad grandma, because it’s not your fault. (Purely hypothetical) There’s a second aspect to this: your daughter in law can’t stand you so instead of feeling all that entails, you just be the bad guy with TMS. I have about 5 more of these in my life.

 

[Baseball65]

What does this mean?

All of the secondary gain therapists pre-suppose that something 'real' (structural) really did happen and that the sufferer has built a conditioned magnification of it via the 'gains' he is receiving....my story for instance, of having a lot of 'real' visible issues, but the symptoms not matching correctly (herniation on left , pain in right leg, etc)

It is the Main theory behind all of the therapies in Chronic pain clinics....so they reward non-pain behavior and punish pain behavior....and very few people ever escape them...they either run out of money, insurance, or they eventually die. it's like the roach motel...they check in, but no one checks out

 

[Diana-M]

So do you think the TMS brain ever creates symptoms for other than distractions from rage? Like, for what I described—to “save” someone you love from having to be hurt?

 

[Ellen]

This topic is on my mind: secondary gain. Having something to gain by having TMS.

First off, Dr. Sarno explicitly said TMS is not caused by trying to get out of doing something — secondary gain. But for me, I wonder. It seems like my TMS is getting me out of a bunch of things I’m super conflicted about. Problem solved. Can’t do it. I have TMS.

I recently heard an interview with @miffybunny and she said that TMSers will sometimes use their symptoms to “save” other people. This just RUNG in my ears. It really got my attention. And I’ve been thinking about it a lot. I think maybe i’m doing that, too.

Anybody else have experience or thoughts on this?

This is a touchy subject for me. I think back to when I had chronic pain and felt the sting of many people assuming I was making up my symptoms to get out of something. I started to believe it myself at times. I did a lot of self-examination around this. I made lists of any possible benefit I might be obtaining from being disabled. Sure, there were some things on that list that seemed believable, mostly around avoiding social interactions. But I ultimately concluded that the pain I was enduring was not worth this. I could and would find a better way to avoid these interactions than physical pain. I'm free of TMS now and I still avoid many social interactions

 

[Baseball65]

I'm free of TMS now and I still avoid many social interactions

Yep. ditto.

Let’s say, you don’t want to upset your son because you can’t stand who he married and it stresses you out. So you just make it so you can’t walk and go over and visit. And then you also aren’t a bad grandma, because it’s not your fault. (Purely hypothetical) There’s a second aspect to this: your daughter in law can’t stand you so instead of feeling all that entails, you just be the bad guy with TMS. I have about 5 more of these in my life.

too complicated. Occams razor.... You hate who he married and the potential of the truth coming to surface necessitates a symptom. Rage. Anger. The only person being 'saved' is YOU by the TMS.

 

[Diana-M]

This is a touchy subject for me. I think back to when I had chronic pain and felt the sting of many people assuming I was making up my symptoms to get out of something. I started to believe it myself at times. I did a lot of self-examination around this. I made lists of any possible benefit I might be obtaining from being disabled. Sure, there were some things on that list that seemed believable, mostly around avoiding social interactions. But I ultimately concluded that the pain I was enduring was not worth this. I could and would find a better way to avoid these interactions than physical pain. I'm free of TMS now and I still avoid many social interactions

@Ellen
I agree! I know I’m getting out of a bunch of social interactions and I’ve always been one to avoid them anyway. The other day I said to myself, “Just use your mouth instead of your body to say ‘no.’” But the honest truth is, I’m not sure if I’m really doing this secondary gain thing or not. I think my ultimate problem has been severe anxiety and perceived danger.

 

[Diana-M]

Rage. Anger. The only person being 'saved' is YOU by the TMS.

It definitely causes me rage. For sure! This TMS work is a LOT of work. But believe it or not, I’m getting somewhere. You guys helped me with my sister and I realized what was going on there. Now she’s gone and I feel this HUGE weight off my shoulders! Long story short: you guys are helping! Thank you!

 

[Ellen]

@Ellen
I agree! I know I’m getting out of a bunch of social interactions and I’ve always been one to avoid them anyway. The other day I said to myself, “Just use your mouth instead of your body to say ‘no.’” But the honest truth is, I’m not sure if I’m really doing this secondary gain thing or not. I think my ultimate problem has been severe anxiety and perceived danger.

Yes, it is scary to be honest with people about why you don't want to be around them. I still make excuses most of the time or just ghost them. I'm not proud of this as it is cowardice.

 

[miffybunny]

Hopefully I can clarify. In terms of secondary gain, we can become attached to symptoms like a companion, a "frenemy" or a bad marriage, where it becomes so familiar that it feels "safe". It's also a great way of opting out of situations without having to cause disappointment or feel blamed for refusing. Tms 'ers are typically conflict avoidant and not great with setting boundaries. In terms of my comment in the interview...tms is the unrecognized defense in psychology. Symptoms "defend" us from the things we don't want to see about ourselves and from intolerable emotions, but they also "defend" loved ones and others, in the sense that it ensures that we don't aggress towards them or shirk our responsibilities to them. In other words it has a protective function for both ourselves and others. If you look at other defenses (there are dozens), they tend to negatively impact others. Since Tms'ers are goodists, they choose the most highly evolved defense that will do the least damage to anyone else. The repression (anger etc. turned inward ) manifests in physical pain or symptoms. This is also the most socially acceptable defense. In my case, I had homicidal thoughts and impulses towards my own son. This was so profoundly unacceptable to my psyche and sense of self, that they became repressed and left to fester in my unconscious. When I learned that these feelings and impulses were actually not lethal, and no indicator of my virtue or sanity, I could finally tolerate them (affect tolerance) and stop being self critical for having them. My emotions did not equate with absence of love for my son, which was my underlying terror. By freeing myself from the self judgment I had about my own emotions, I resolved the inner conflict, the guilt dissolved, and the anger was felt and detoxified, and thus, the tms defense strategy disabled. I had freed my body from the mind's purpose.

 

[Diana-M]

When I learned that these feelings and impulses were actually not lethal, and no indicator of my virtue or sanity, I could finally tolerate them (affect tolerance) and stop being self critical for having them

Thank you SO MUCH for this! It makes total sense to me. I can understand it. And, it gives me hope that I can learn how to tolerate them too

Since Tms'ers are goodists, they choose the most highly evolved defense that will do the least damage to anyone else

I have always tried to protect other people—Especially my kids. And now that they are grown, things are so much more complicated. It is all catching up with me. I have stuffed so much. I need to uncover and make peace with all my “unacceptable” feelings. I really appreciate this discussion!

 

[Deelee]

Hopefully I can clarify. In terms of secondary gain, we can become attached to symptoms like a companion, a "frenemy" or a bad marriage, where it becomes so familiar that it feels "safe". It's also a great way of opting out of situations without having to cause disappointment or feel blamed for refusing. Tms 'ers are typically conflict avoidant and not great with setting boundaries. In terms of my comment in the interview...tms is the unrecognized defense in psychology. Symptoms "defend" us from the things we don't want to see about ourselves and from intolerable emotions, but they also "defend" loved ones and others, in the sense that it ensures that we don't aggress towards them or shirk our responsibilities to them. In other words it has a protective function for both ourselves and others. If you look at other defenses (there are dozens), they tend to negatively impact others. Since Tms'ers are goodists, they choose the most highly evolved defense that will do the least damage to anyone else. The repression (anger etc. turned inward ) manifests in physical pain or symptoms. This is also the most socially acceptable defense. In my case, I had homicidal thoughts and impulses towards my own son. This was so profoundly unacceptable to my psyche and sense of self, that they became repressed and left to fester in my unconscious. When I learned that these feelings and impulses were actually not lethal, and no indicator of my virtue or sanity, I could finally tolerate them (affect tolerance) and stop being self critical for having them. My emotions did not equate with absence of love for my son, which was my underlying terror. By freeing myself from the self judgment I had about my own emotions, I resolved the inner conflict, the guilt dissolved, and the anger was felt and detoxified, and thus, the tms defense strategy disabled. I had freed my body from the mind's purpose.

This resonates with me sooo much! I'm still trying to figure out if my symptoms are TMS vs structural (I have hip pain/torn labrums and the pain has spread to my back/tailbone/abdomen). Interestingly, the symptoms began when I started homeschooling my special needs teenage daughter (ADHD/autism), and the amount of rage, frustration, and disdain I feel some days seems unacceptable for a mother! On particularly bad days I have dark, hopeless thoughts that I could just exit this earth and not have to deal with this for the rest of my life. I am aware of these feelings though, so it's not like they are unconscious. I wonder if I could still get TMS from these feelings even though I am aware of them?

 

[Cactusflower]

This resonates with me sooo much! I'm still trying to figure out if my symptoms are TMS vs structural (I have hip pain/torn labrums and the pain has spread to my back/tailbone/abdomen). Interestingly, the symptoms began when I started homeschooling my special needs teenage daughter (ADHD/autism), and the amount of rage, frustration, and disdain I feel some days seems unacceptable for a mother! On particularly bad days I have dark, hopeless thoughts that I could just exit this earth and not have to deal with this for the rest of my life. I am aware of these feelings though, so it's not like they are unconscious. I wonder if I could still get TMS from these feelings even though I am aware of them?

Yes! There is probably more going on than rage. I was an autism teacher during my career, and our parents had so much. Many of them had loads of guilt, grief, sadness (and guilt for the sadness), worry for their child and feelings of lack of control for their child's future. Many also had rage and anger. It's not just the actual emotions, but how you internalize your feelings about the emotions also comes into play, and how you fight these feelings. "I'm angry but I just need to swallow it and carry on" and then become resentful, bitter etc. either in general or about a specific "thing" (topic or whatever trigger) can also be a culprit. These things create fear. You fear for yourself and your child, for the future, for your changing attitude and beliefs - and then the co-dependancy of emotions. I found the parents I worked with would kind of symbolically take on their child's emotions and would find great relief when their children were able to express these emotions to us - the parent could more easily separate themselves from the child.

Finding ways to get back to yourself, all your beliefs and values, all your interests etc. as you, just you I think is so helpful. So is actually EXPRESSING your rage in a safe way (eg. journalism or in other ways....some folks here like to run, hit a baseball as hard as they can, and myself, I'm working up to doing work outs with a punching bag!). Knowing, thinking and understanding what you are angry about is completely different than allowing the rage (guilt, grief) to flow through you, to feel it without judgement. Also accepting that some days are dark, some days are hard and that's OK - it's part of the human experience and it's OK to allow yourself to feel these things.
It's also absolutely acceptable and good to pamper yourself and indulge yourself and accept that you are worthy of a life with and without your child. I mean little things like going to get a facial, get your hair done, etc. things you didn't realize you might be denying yourself. I found myself denying myself the smallest of things and realized how weird that was eg. not wearing lip balm and having dry peeling lips, or not moisturizing my body... we learn to beat ourselves up in the strangest of ways!

 

[Baseball65]

Yes! There is probably more going on than rage. I was an autism teacher during my career, and our parents had so much. Many of them had loads of guilt, grief, sadness (and guilt for the sadness), worry for their child and feelings of lack of control for their child's future. Many also had rage and anger. It's not just the actual emotions, but how you internalize your feelings about the emotions also comes into play, and how you fight these feelings. "I'm angry but I just need to swallow it and carry on" and then become resentful, bitter etc. either in general or about a specific "thing" (topic or whatever trigger) can also be a culprit. These things create fear. You fear for yourself and your child, for the future, for your changing attitude and beliefs - and then the co-dependancy of emotions. I found the parents I worked with would kind of symbolically take on their child's emotions and would find great relief when their children were able to express these emotions to us - the parent could more easily separate themselves from the child.

Finding ways to get back to yourself, all your beliefs and values, all your interests etc. as you, just you I think is so helpful. So is actually EXPRESSING your rage in a safe way (eg. journalism or in other ways....some folks here like to run, hit a baseball as hard as they can, and myself, I'm working up to doing work outs with a punching bag!). Knowing, thinking and understanding what you are angry about is completely different than allowing the rage (guilt, grief) to flow through you, to feel it without judgement. Also accepting that some days are dark, some days are hard and that's OK - it's part of the human experience and it's OK to allow yourself to feel these things.
It's also absolutely acceptable and good to pamper yourself and indulge yourself and accept that you are worthy of a life with and without your child. I mean little things like going to get a facial, get your hair done, etc. things you didn't realize you might be denying yourself. I found myself denying myself the smallest of things and realized how weird that was eg. not wearing lip balm and having dry peeling lips, or not moisturizing my body... we learn to beat ourselves up in the strangest of ways!

That was spot on. I actually feel a HUGE conscious wave of anxiety when I am going to buy myself anything, and most of my 'covets' and 'wants' are things I want to get for my sons, my dog, anybody but myself. Hell, I live in a 'too expensive' rental because of the yard for my dog.

Reading this was good because it just woke up all of the charades I am STILL propping up.

I can't change my personality, but I can spend time (with paper) admitting to myself that the stuff I blow off as 'no big deal' actually really hurts

 

[Sita]

Cactusflower's comment was very interesting. Her last sentence spoke to me like it spoke to Baseball65.

I have to think about this thread more...

 

[Deelee]

Yes! There is probably more going on than rage. I was an autism teacher during my career, and our parents had so much. Many of them had loads of guilt, grief, sadness (and guilt for the sadness), worry for their child and feelings of lack of control for their child's future. Many also had rage and anger. It's not just the actual emotions, but how you internalize your feelings about the emotions also comes into play, and how you fight these feelings. "I'm angry but I just need to swallow it and carry on" and then become resentful, bitter etc. either in general or about a specific "thing" (topic or whatever trigger) can also be a culprit. These things create fear. You fear for yourself and your child, for the future, for your changing attitude and beliefs - and then the co-dependancy of emotions. I found the parents I worked with would kind of symbolically take on their child's emotions and would find great relief when their children were able to express these emotions to us - the parent could more easily separate themselves from the child.

Finding ways to get back to yourself, all your beliefs and values, all your interests etc. as you, just you I think is so helpful. So is actually EXPRESSING your rage in a safe way (eg. journalism or in other ways....some folks here like to run, hit a baseball as hard as they can, and myself, I'm working up to doing work outs with a punching bag!). Knowing, thinking and understanding what you are angry about is completely different than allowing the rage (guilt, grief) to flow through you, to feel it without judgement. Also accepting that some days are dark, some days are hard and that's OK - it's part of the human experience and it's OK to allow yourself to feel these things.
It's also absolutely acceptable and good to pamper yourself and indulge yourself and accept that you are worthy of a life with and without your child. I mean little things like going to get a facial, get your hair done, etc. things you didn't realize you might be denying yourself. I found myself denying myself the smallest of things and realized how weird that was eg. not wearing lip balm and having dry peeling lips, or not moisturizing my body... we learn to beat ourselves up in the strangest of ways!

This is wonderful advice, thank you! That last sentence speaks to me so much as well ...there are so many ways I deny myself!

 

[Duggit]

Finding ways to get back to yourself, all your beliefs and values, all your interests etc. as you, just you I think is so helpful. So is actually EXPRESSING your rage in a safe way (eg. journalism or in other ways....some folks here like to run, hit a baseball as hard as they can, and myself, I'm working up to doing work outs with a punching bag!).

Then there is Steve Ozanich in his The Great Pain Deception at page 276, where he discussed things like “hitting pillows, or screaming at photos, or anything that is called venting.” He wrote:

“Multiple studies today show this is not helpful in the long run and in fact is dangerous because it strengthens the roots of anger. Throwing things and hitting things only exhausts you and fools you into believing your anger is gone, but in fact, it just leaves you too exhausted to be angry. The roots of the anger remain buried. Venting can make you angrier, and the next time you see the person you are angry at, you may practice what you have rehearsed by hitting him or screaming at him. Venting is conditioning.”
​

The emphasis is Ozanich’s.

Dr. Sarno said we repress emotions that we have learned are too dangerous or too painful to experience. His chief psychologist Arlene Feinblatt has said venting only makes you realize how dangerous your anger is. Perhaps the implication is that the next time someone angers you, you will be more likely to repress it more deeply.

 

[Cactusflower]

@Booble
I think you have misinterpreted what I wrote.

​

 

[Diana-M]

Venting is conditioning.”

I noticed when I do a lot of angry journaling I don’t feel better. I actually feel worse.