Not sure I believe the premise

Hi all. I'm an analytical and scientifically minded person, but I've been toying with buying into this mindbody approach I fully believe that the nervous system is at the heart of my physical symptoms because I am dealing with autonomic dysfunction, which is all tied to the vagus nerve, which I know can be influenced by fear and soothing. I can also find proofs for myself that tie the onset my symptoms to stress and ongoing fear and vigilance. However, there are a few barriers to me fully accepting that my symptoms can be healed through a mindbody approach:

- One premise cited by Sarno and other practitioners for this approach is that if doctors can't find anything structurally wrong, you need to accept that there is nothing wrong. I find this quite arrogant. There are many physiological and structural abnormalities that doctors are not equipped to find and that we simply don't know much about yet. Medicine is an evolving field, and to assume that if doctors don't understand it, it doesn't exist, is incomprehensible to me. My symptoms started post-vaccine, and a family member's symptoms started post-covid, and researchers are now discovering abnormalities in small fiber nerves, blood clotting, mitochondrial function. A doctor would never be able to diagnose these things, but they are observable in long covid and long vax patients when researchers know what to look for. Even many nutritional deficiencies are not detectable in regular blood tests, and I have read many anecdotal reports from people who are fully recovered after balancing their iron or B12 or other nutrients (covid seems to tank iron for many people). Similarly, some people who do anticoagulation therapy to dissolve blood clots are cured. I can't find a way to make this knowledge I have mesh with the mindbody approach described here, and I find that even when I do my emotional work and self-soothing (which I do a lot of), I am still wondering if there isn't a nutritional deficit or damage to my small fiber nerves that is causing my symptoms, as that really does seem to be the case for many people.

- I have come across TMS practitioners dismissing the idea of pacing in long covid or ME/CFS recovery as generating more fear. I find this shocking. Graded physical therapy has been shown to be so detrimental to people trying to recover from long covid and pacing is shown to be key for recovery, both in studies and in many many personal stories. There have been so many people who got long covid or ME/CFS before they knew what it was and therefore before they knew to be afraid of physical activity or of their symptoms, and they made themselves so much worse by not pacing and not listening to their bodies and just fearlessly plowing ahead. I know someone who started getting ME/CFS symptoms in the 1970s, and it was treated like anxiety and hysteria and she just got worse and worse because she was told that it was just anxiety.

So basically, while I do believe that our minds are powerful and have an effect on our physiology, I feel that there is something missing in this approach - namely, an acknowledgement that 1) doctors don't know everything, and some physiological issues would be missed by them, and 2) many studies are showing that pacing and resting IS key for recovery from long covid, and it seems that just believing that it's anxiety is not a solution.

I feel curious about the mindbody approach and open to it, but these blocks to my fully buying into it are huge, and I don't see how to get around them. I'd value any analytically and scientifically sound thoughts about this. Thanks!

 

Thank you for your reply @JanAtheCPA. I appreciate hearing that you think the process is more complex and individual than presented by Dr. Sarno, and I'm always glad to hear success stories! I am currently listening to Dr. Schubiner talk about Covid, and he is saying that when a virus clears and there are still symptoms, it is the mind creating them. I find this to be highly flawed logic. Perhaps it is true of other viruses, though I don't know how he is so certain about this because we know this is not true of HIV and many other viruses that do cause lasting damage in the body. And covid is still new, and we just don't know the full impact and long-term effects, so I find this dismissiveness highly disconcerting and the source of more internal stress. I WANT to believe that this is a mindbody issue and that I have some control over my recovery, but I am holding that desire up against the facts, i.e., that this virus is far more destructive than a cold or the flu (it is now the third leading cause of death in Canada). How can I dismiss long covid or vaccine injury as a physiological issue when article after article cites the effects of even mild infections on the brain, vascular system, immune system? I don't understand dismissing it as "just another virus." AND, I feel quite sure that this constant fear has contributed to my symptoms. And so the cycle continues, and I'm not sure how to break out of it....

 

This is similar to the argument that Sarno and others have used to suggest that it's arrogant to dismiss the mindbody connection. So many doctors (more in Sarno's time, especially earlier in his work) would attach anything structurally wrong that they could point to...instead of being open to a mindbody connection/TMS. We see this with all sorts of diagnoses today, especially related to back pain (doctors often vaguely point to an old car accident or sports injury and say that must be the source of the pain...and once they find herniated discs, it's a slam-dunk diagnosis for them).

If somebody catches an illness that doctors are not yet able to diagnose ("not equipped to find"), then there is likely no treatment until the medical establishment catches up.
There are certainly illnesses that are rare, that are very hard to diagnose, and where there is very limited knowledge. But, that's always going to be the case to some degree.
I personally don't think it's going to be productive to think in absolutes that cover everyone (i.e. if my doctor hasn't found something structurally wrong, then it HAS to be TMS // or if my doctor has diagnosed something, then that doctor has to be right on, and it's not TMS).
And, TMS can be connected to diagnosed illnesses (i.e. Shingles had a mindbody / stress connection when I had it).
There is so much going on, and it's different for everybody. In my case, TMS has shown up in so many different ways that it's prudent to think of that first.

It's also important that Dr. Sarno talked about the many potential patients he did not see, that he turned down because he did not think they would be able or ready to accept the TMS diagnosis and treatment.

One way to try to break out of it (and it's a tough spot to find yourself in, for sure!!) is to try to fully embrace the mindbody/TMS approach...to follow a program or set of practices and see what kind of results you get.
If what you have is something doctors are not yet able to diagnosis, or something where there is no treatment available, then there are no great alternatives....Why not fully embrace the mindbody connection and see where that gets you?
I wish you well.

 

@Bonnard and @JanAtheCPA - Thanks for engaging in a conversation about this! You've given me lots to think about. I do completely believe in the mindbody connection as a principle as well. I have been doing some form of brain retraining, meditations, and visualizations for a while now. I read the book "Cured" by Jeffrey Rediger early on when I was experiencing symptoms, and it really opened me up to a sense of hope and power in my recovery. And I have seen the power of suggestion at work in my own life and with my own health, which is what landed me here. All the same, I am noticing resistance because I think the approach can be simplistic and overlook more complex issues. Perhaps there is also a misplaced sense of allegiance to the people I know who are ill and have not gotten better. I know there is certainly a lot of fear talking. I think I am at the place that you talk about, Bonnard, of feeling like I will give it my all because why not and what do I have to lose? I guess I worry that the resistance in me will hold me back. But then of course, that worry is its own thing to be addressed. Maybe my approach here can be to accept my resistance and make room for it while also making room for the hope and trust that I can get well, a sort of suspension of disbelief and a focusing on the reasoning that brought me to the place where I believe this is possible. I appreciate your generosity in offering your stories and thoughts.

 

I was wondering the Same today because since 2 years i have severe neurological Symptoms Who No doctor does understand. I was at 2 universitiys even. Many checkups. I realy think to this day that there must be Something wrong with my Body what they did Not find until this day...YET. there comes the yet haha. Im in constant worry about this and still cant Accept the mindbody diagnosis because of this, maybe they missed Something, how many diseases did they find after a few years? Certainly happens. BUT now we have to Look at some factors. Does it get better with relaxation, worse with Stress ? I remember some Moments where i absolutely Had Zero Problems. As soon as i was remembering : huh where are my Symptoms? They did came Instant Back. These are some indicators. I also realy do think extremly complicated, im almost disabled now

 

The brain controls the nervous system...it's the master controller so anything that the body has the functionality to do, the brain can co opt. I fully recovered from a slew of mega neurological symptoms. For centuries, the "Wisdom of the Ages" understood that the mind and body were one. It was only after the 1950's with technological advances that humans started to trust and worship the machines of their own inventions over the human body and mind. Western medicine became egregiously arrogant and the truth of the matter is, humans are compplicated, but we are not THAT complex or special. We are all designed the same and the mind body approach is simply and extension of evolutionary theory. This idea that humans have suddenly begun to crumble and succumb to mysterious maladies that have never before been seen in all of civilization, is simply nonsensical. The more technological we become as a society, the further away we stray from common sense, and the more toxic, disconnected, and sick humans become. We live in an epidemic of fear and labelism unfortunately.

 

But even worse is when they presume TO understand it..like herniated discs...Like Carpal Tunnel...Like The Luminiferous aether, The 'K'-line, Clovis First, "There Never was a Trojan war" and lot of other 'commonplace' science findings
They have been walking in circles like a person with their foot nailed to the floor for decades with very very few PERMANENTLY healed people (like me) for Ignoring mind body principles.
In fact, if Sarno is right (and my experience bears out that he is) and it is repressed rage and unconscious, it really doesn't matter how analytical and scientific you want it to be, because it is something that doesn't appeal to that part of the brain. I was one of the most analytical and science minded people in the world... until I got TMS...all of the Hubris and arrogance was on the side of the medical community., and myself Vicariously. When I told them I was going to try Sarno THEY laughed and scoffed.

I am a relatively lower income manual laborer. I don't know a single person with Long Covid. Like Neurasthenia in Freuds time, only people with medical insurance from middle and upper middle class backgrounds seem to be able to have Long Covid.
"Blessed are the Poor"

Most of us had to get pretty beaten with our own beliefs before we were willing to try this... but without any sarcasm or schadenfreude... No one can talk you into or out of it...but make sure you are evaluating everything and not just listening to their 'findings' ; all of my friends who are gambling addicts always tell me about how much they win at Casino's and all I think is "Wow...my friends are taking all of that money away from Vegas and YET those Casino's keep getting Bigger and more ornate...while they're giving money away! OR... My friends aren't telling me the whole truth

 

Whenever I become too intellectual about my symptoms, I know I have been ignoring the psychological.

 

I know poor people with long covid and ME/CFS unfortunately and have encountered many poor people online with it as well. I don't know anyone with cancer. Doesn't mean it doesn't exist. What I do believe are people's stories about their lives. Which is why I find this work compelling and also believe the many many people who got post-viral illnesses before they knew such a thing existed. I'm open to having my beliefs change, which is why I'm pushing against the elements of the conversation that don't add up to me.

 

How do you come to "humans have suddenly begun to crumble"? People have been struck down by illnesses for as long as humans have existed, and our quality of life and life expectancy is much much better now than it ever was due to advances in modern medicine. I don't doubt that the mind and body are connected, but I find it difficult to buy into this whole approach when the thinking around it doesn't add up.

 

I'm open to considering that my objections to Dr. Schubiner's claims are a form of resistance, but I don't see how they could be construed as irrational. The facts are plain that this virus causes illness, tissue and organ damage, and death. That doesn't mean I think that it's impossible that in many cases the brain gets stuck in FOF and that that can be healed through this work, but I find a sweeping claim about Covid being entirely a matter of the mind to be preposterous given the objective data. So, no, not irrational. But open to the possibility of healing nonetheless.

 

Modern western society is replete with propaganda about the fragility of the back for example. We have all sorts of ideas about "misalignment", herniations causing pain, the 'back going our" from picking something up improperly. From an evolutionary perspective the human body is incredibly strong and resilient. It's only in modern times that we have these collective belief systems (that became consensus in medical practice) that we are weak and delicate faberge eggs. While humans once were struck down by infection and disease, now we are plagued with labels and iatrogenesis. Now we have a sick and toxic society from the perspective of fear and mental health. Tremendous unnecessary suffering because of false beliefs and conditioning and enculturation. Read @Smokey73 comment. I wish I could give it a thousand likes.[/QUOTE]

 

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OK, I hear what you're saying. I have to let this sit with me for a bit. It's a new narrative and I'm having trouble piecing it together with my old one that we are generally just more healthy nowadays. As for getting intellectual...I am an intellectual person. That is not going to change. I am also an emotional person who has always done deep emotional and psychological work, so I don't feel that giving up my intellect is an option. I need to find a way to make it work for me though because I do see how it can hold me back with obsessive thinking and trying to figure things out. Thanks for taking the time to respond.

 

Intellect misapplied becomes a defense. Defenses help us cope initially but over time they break down and break us down in the process. Intellect is best applied in ways that serve us. We can use our logic and reason too counter doubt but we can't think our way out of obsession. That is truly an emotional endeavor.

 

A Buddhist phrase that opened my mind is " you don't have to believe everything that you think". My thinking is dependent on what is happening in my life. It is not set in stone. It is fallible. It is not nearly as important as I once thought. So now I question my thoughts. And I realize they are only good for the moment and will probably change sooner or later. When I have fearful thoughts, I come to the wiki for a good dose of TSM reality.

 

I appreciate the recommendation of Gabor Mate's book. I've been reading it and finding it helpful in getting more clarity about the mindbody connection. I personally don't find being told that I just need to believe or that my need for rational explanations makes me one of the harder ones to treat to be very helpful. I was never afraid of the vaccine. This was my 5th shot, and I was a huge advocate of them. I still believe they are on the whole good. So I don't buy into the "we only get symptoms from the things we fear" narrative that I'm finding in this TMS space. I find it victim blamey and reductive. Vaccines and viruses have caused negative health consequences in people long before anyone knew to fear them. Scientists are finding reasons for long covid and there are new promising treatments on the horizon. The theme of my responses is to find a way to connect to this work and trust in the process that isn't overly simplistic or reductive. And I am finding "When the Body Says No" helpful on that front, so I thank you for that. I am also finding this approach helpful: https://www.curablehealth.com/podcast/its-okay-to-be-skeptical#:~:text=It's%20okay%20to%20be%20skeptical%2C%20in%20fact%20it's%20a%20great,spirit%20or%20exploration%20and%20discovery%3F (Why It’s Okay to Be Skeptical About Healing)