Shooting Suspect has/had history of Back Pain

When I saw this story of YouTube I immediately asked myself what Dr. Sarno would say about Magione's condition?WEe

 

First off, for anybody watching this vid, it is FULLY indoctrinated in the 'Medieval Medical Mythology"...the host himself believes he is 'fixed' by the surgeries he has had. I would wager a weeks salary he 'needs' another and right soon.

as far as Mangione? I would say, that he is totally normal and Has TMS.
I have mentioned before...when my back pain came I was in the best shape of my life.
I gagged a little when I read some other info about this kid telling someone that "they needed to improve their core strength."
I was in the best shape of my life when my pain came. I had just lost a bunch of weight and was running and doing sit-ups etc.

Kid is 26....just about to lose his insurance.
He's an ENGINEER so he fully buys into the MYTH of structural causes
He is from a wealthy family and has few mountains left to conquer
He has anxiety about no having a partner
He has read Kaczynski who is fairly persuasive.
He is fully indoctrinated in the left wing Idea that harming wealthy people is OK because of 'Stochastic Violence'

What is not shocking but bugs the hell out of me..the Medical people interviewed think MORE money needs to be invested in the structural Myth.....

so, we are still lost as a species.

I am thinking this would have made Sarno bummed.

 

Sad story with this guy. I had no idea he had back pain.

I read all the discussion here. From my experience people don't want to hear about dr. Sarno's mind-body connection. I tried to share with others and no one, not one person was convinced. They didn't even care to listen, let alone to buy the book and read it. Most people in pain that I know need psychotherapy. They really need it. And they will never get it because they don't want to. They would rather have surgeries, live in pain etc. instead of looking into their emotional dysfunctions. And that's the way it is. Nothing I can do about it.

I see some positive changes in society, gradually. In many domains. Some positive ideas and concepts have appeared and people need to get used to all these. But it takes time, a long time. I think we are living some weird times now. The old has to go and the new needs to be implemented. It's not so easy, people don't want to change, change is hard.

Moral values have been deteriorating too for quite some decades. Lying and cheating, me, I, my, too many people think only about themselves. It's wild. Too intense. And it's impossible to continue like this forever. Impossible. We'll see what the future brings. I hope that people will get so desperate that they will be forced to change for the better. Changing out of desperation will not be fun. It's never easy.

Just my opinion here...

 

I have NEVER met someone with TMS where I didn't figure out what was probably the root cause in about a day or two of knowing them. I have compared it to Indian Poker...normally everybody can see but the person holding the card.

I have pondered becoming a TMS therapist, though I wonder; maybe people are more open around a peer or fellow then around a Doctor or therapist. I have helped people, but when we get to the 'undiscussable' that is where they sink or heal.

The one litmus test for TMS cause? The thing the person assures me is NOT causing their problem? (Job, Partner, Children, Parents) IS the problem! The more unwilling they are to look at something, the more likely THAT is the cause.

This Kid thought all of his problems are 'out there'. Most people who are unhappy usually do. But as soon as we learn the problem is 'in here' we can commence to heal. Unfortunately our society is caught up in grievance as a religion. Even Kaczynski his big "hero" ...one long rational grievance.

I listened to and read "Industrial Society and it's Future", and I had a panic type of feeling and back spasms. It's external logic is what you would expect from a Genius Mathematician. The same kind of Logic that tells us that Herniated discs cause pain. Completely logical..and totally wrong.

If he was reading that, I imagine his pain got worse. It gave me TMS symptoms when I was fine.
Eckhart Tolle approaches this the best. Intelligence without wisdom gives you Atomic Bombs and Gridlock traffic. And Murderers.
Wisdom doesn't even need intelligence. I have met people I can beat in a spelling bee who are far wiser than me.

Hopefully Wisdom wins out

 

You should! You are really good at it!

I always listen intently when you say these things. I think for some people there can be layers and layers of things wrong. There’s the past, there’s the personality and there’s the current situation that, yes, most people deny.

I wish I could unlock my TMS scenario with a golden key—because I can see full blown what’s currently in my face. It’s possible to live with somebody who’s got a lot of things wrong with them and you have a lot of things wrong with you, but you both still love each other. This swirling mess can make you sick. I go to Al-Anon meetings every day to learn about the spiritual, physical, emotional disease of alcoholism that I suffer from as the non-drinker and my husband suffers from as the drinker. It’s a heavy load. We are both kind to each other, just neurotic. And we’ve been together 26 years. He does not want to get any help right now. Yes, it’s infuriating. Do you think if I’m out of denial about this I can still lick this TMS? I hope so.

I really don’t know sometimes about my life. It has been pretty screwed up from Day One as a kid. I’ve had about 15 rounds of TMS and without knowing how to heal it I ignored it every single time and it eventually went away or subsided to negligible. Those are good stats. That’s a 100% cure rate!

But right now all I really have left is I can walk slowly with a walker and I can use my right hand. Everything is hard. I’m in pain all the time. This is the biggest pit I’ve ever been in with TMS but it’s also the most I’ve ever learned about it. And the most work I’ve ever done. I’m still holding out for a victory. I would give $1 million to tell my success story here —and if I do, you guys will be a big part of it.

 

Diana, this is not an advice of any kind, because I don't feel qualified to advise on these matters, but this is just my thoughts on the subject, please, don't take any offense. Could it be that the cause of your pain is the impossibility for you to get your husband off alcohol? I can't even imagine what it would take to let go of your concern for your husband of 26 years who you love and who loves you but is unable to get out of addiction, but have you tried to let go? Could it be that he is resisting your interventions primarily because you are trying to intervene while he wants to do it on his terms? I feel your pain and am sending you my love and hugs!

 

Tamara,
Thank you so much for your thoughts! I know these vulnerable honest posts are pretty hard to respond to, so I appreciate it. Yes! I am definitely upset that he won’t do anything about his addiction and he was warned by his doctor that he is jeopardizing his health. That’s when I really noticed my symptoms take a turn for the worse. One reason I talk about my membership in Al-Anon is that it is a lifesaver for me. Its main message is to let go and let God and that you cannot control another person. I’m sure I still give my husband the message quite a bit that I want him to quit even though I’m supposedly trying not to do that. I think I’m also sad because when we met, we used to drink together and have a lot of fun for years, but we were young. Now everything is different. I quit drinking, ironically, when my TMS kicked in. I was afraid I’d fall and hurt myself. I think our aging, his health and the drinking are a big part of my stress level, but I think other things contributed and it was a very big overall package that I’ve been slowly trying to dismantle through everything I’m learning here. I truly appreciate all your help on this forum. It has really meant a lot to me!

 

"First off, for anybody watching this vid, it is FULLY indoctrinated in the 'Medieval Medical Mythology"...the host himself believes he is 'fixed' by the surgeries he has had. I would wager a weeks salary he 'needs' another and right soon." - Baseball65

True, so true, Baseball, but I think there are new medical authorities with a different take on the origins of back pain who are not being taken into account in these rather naive reactions to Mangione's back pain and anti-social response to his medical-personal predicament. First off, there is the Stanford Integrative Medicine Center at Stanford University Medical School in Palo Alto, California, which is turning out MDs who are mind-body aware. Even in the primitive backwoods of Sonora where I live now there is Dr Leslie M. Bracchini MD who practices only by referral and on a cash only basis but it still affiliated with the Adventist Healthcare network. And she comes out of the Stanford Medical School integrative medicine program. True, it'll cost you but Dr Bracchini is known for being quite good. Of course, there is Dr David Clarke, founder of the PPDA Association (renamed the Association for Treatment of Neuropathic Symptoms) in Portland, Oregon. Not to overlook, Dr Howard Schubiner, who is full-professor at the Wayne State School of Medicine and author of Unlearn Your Pain. Alan Gordon, LCSW, who runs the Pain Psychology Center in Southern California. I did notice that none of these alternative authorities were cited once in the commentary generated by Luigi Mangione's shooting of the United Healthcare CEO. Not one alternative voice is speaks out!

One ray of hope that I mentioned elsewhere is the fact that such a conservative organization as Kaiser Permanente has adopted Herbert Benson's mind-body meditation methodologies in combination with medications in their hypertension treatment programs in California, in particular at Kaiser in Redwood City. Of course, I don't know if every Kaiser Hospital in California does this, but certainly some do. I do get the feeling that there are cracks beginning to appear in the cement of Allopathic Symptom Specific treatment of Medical conditions? I certainly would welcome more specific examples of this. Bet Dr David Clarke would know.

It would be good if someone analyzed Luigi Mangione's behavior in terms of TMS theory, but I know how difficult it would be to do so in anything more than a rather naive sophomorish way without first-hand knowledge of the subject. I know why psychologists and psychiatrists shy away from these kind of reverse engineered case studies!

 

https://www.cnn.com/2024/12/12/health/video/gupta-mangione-spine-spondylolisthesis-digvid

I notice that this is Dr. Sanjay Gupta's take on the origins of Luigi Mangione's back pain. He ascribes it to a spinal condition called spondylolisthesis, in which two of the bones in the spine are "slipping," one on top of the other. I couldn't find a direct reference to this condition in Dr Sarno but in the Mindbody Prescription Sarno does seen to classify it as one of the structural abnormalities associated with degenerative osteoarthritis. However, Dr Sarno also insists that such changes are normal abnormalities merely associated with the aging process. In other words there is no direct statistical correlation between so-called spondylolisthesis and incidences of lower back pain (LBP). As Sarno would have put it, spondylolisthesis is a "normal abnormality" and there's no statistical correlation between the condition and the appearance of pain in the back. As Baseball65 implies, Gupta's explanation as a orthopedic surgeon merely perpetuates this sort of medical mythology without offering any incontrovertible statistical proof of his diagnosis. The big problem here is of course that Mangione's bought into this structural explanation 100% and couldn't extricate himself from its implications enough to realize that his Lower Back Pain issues were actually based on deep psychological conflicts or some other cause. I don't see any references to Mangione having failed back surgeries though and any testimony about treatments he may have gone through. It is interesting, as Baseball65 suggests above, that all these explanations merely reinforce the failed structural explanation for Mangione's back pain. There's obviously a lot more evidence we don't have any knowledge about. Have to keep exploring this story as it's ongoing. Wonder what Howard Schubiner, David Clarke or Alan Gordon have to say about Gupta's diagnosis of Mangione's condition?

 

Wasn’t Nicole Sachs diagnosed with the same condition before discovering TMS and meeting with Dr. Sarno? I thought it sounded familiar to me.

 

Don't know about Nicole Sachs' original exact diagnosis. But osteoarthritis certainly seems to be a convenient catch all explanation for any pain a patient may be feeling in their lower back. Very hard to prove, very hard to disprove too! I've sent a copy of Dr Gupta's CNN video to Dr Howard Schubiner and asked for his informed opinion about what Gupta is saying there. Bet he handles this slippery fish with a great deal of rhetorical distance, but we'll have to wait and see what Dr Schubiner actually says.

 

Bruce,

Here’s something from Steve O https://www.tmswiki.org/forum/threads/confused-about-osteoarthritis.16933/ (Confused about osteoarthritis?)

“As long as people believe that their osteo-arthritis causes their pain they cannot heal. The same is true for herniated discs, crooked spines, weak cores, or old injuries, etc., it's all the same in the end. As Dr. Sarno rightfully said on many occasions, "there is no such thing as chronic pain from an old injury."

The images show all these normal changes like OA, herniations, crookedness, plantar fasciitis, etc., and the people heal anyway. So it cannot be coming from these things. The physicians are the ones causing most of the suffering by telling people their pain is coming from these normal body changes. They plant the meme of suffering by falsely associating what's seen on the images with the sensation of pain; the sufferer then believes the physician and voila, lifelong suffering. It then gets more deeply fortified when the sufferer wants to believe they have a real physical problem, which is the essence of "why" TMS exists, and why Dr. Sarno should have won the Novel Prize in Medicine.

I've literally seen thousands of people heal who were told they they could not heal. The ones who heal are the ones who reject the body changes as seen on the images. But of course there are always odd anomalies so it helps to see the top docs who practice TMS. Thus lies the controversial conundrum, everyone feels they may be the exception, when they aren't. The factor causing the most suffering, because it generates the most confusion is the placebo.”

 

Yes, Steve's points are very hard to deny. This sure seems to be the topic du jour, does it not? Little wonder with 44% of Americans in the latest polls extremely dissatisfied with their health coverage.

 

From the following YouTube video, one has to wonder whether there was really anything structurally wrong with Luigi Mangione's spine or whether the entire surgical procedure he underwent was gratuitous and a total waste of time?



The only way of accounting for Mangione's extreme mobility both before and after shooting the UHC CEO is that his debilitating back pain was an intermittent phenomenon and not based on a structural problem with the vertebrae in his back, rather it was due to brain issue, much as Dr Sarno postulated about the neuroplastic and emotional origins of TMS. All those titanium screws in Mangione's spine were obviously gratuitous and irrelevant to his basic mobility. The only conclusion an impartial observer can reach is that Luigi Mangione really had TMS. If his spine was really damaged, how could he shoot the CEO and then take off on his bike on a long ride through NYC Central Park?

 

I have a diagnoses of spondylolisthesis and my bones will slip and catch occasionally, I can just not get myself to bend when it happens. My PT's theory is that it is caused by tension - anxiety.

 

In other words, caused by TMS? Tension = Equivalent of Anxiety.

 

Yes you are correct about her!


https://wereonlyhumanpodcast.com/nicole-sachs-you-cannot-think-your-way-into-better-feelings/ (Nicole Sachs: You Cannot Think Your Way Into Better Feelings - We're Only Human)



It is mentioned in the first paragraph in that link!

 

Sure sounds like the Mangione case provides an excellent opportunity for us on the TMS Forum to make the general public and the traditional medical community aware of TMS doesn’t it?

 

I read more about Mangione's history and it is full of TMS red flags. He claims to have been diagnosed with Lyme Disease at age 13, complaints of intermittent fatigue, brain fog, visual snow, IBS.......all the TMS greatest hits. His back pain started after a surfing lesson and slipping on a piece of paper. Reportedly, his back pain was relieved by the surgery and he was a big advocate for surgical interventions. I suspect it would have morphed into something else eventually. Apparently he never had insurance with United Health Care.