What else is there - Seriously

First and foremost, we aren't your primary physician, so we can only give advice, and not make an actual diagnosis.

However, it seems like you've done your due diligence around this, so very likely you are having simple symptoms of GAD (generalized anxiety disorder), which is really what TMS is. I posted this before, but please check this list. It is the most comprehensive list of anxiety symptoms I've ever found online : https://www.anxietycentre.com/anxiety-symptoms.shtml#anxiety-symptoms-list (Anxiety Symptoms & Signs)

I don't know your history, but I can guarantee you've probably experienced quite a few things on there!

So let's look at this more objectively, to take some of the emotion out of it. You have an obvious TMS/anxiety history, you've had these symptoms before, and they resolved on their own before. That alone is usually enough to warrant a TMS diagnosis. Also, if it were something else, and you haven't been treating it with anything, it most likely would have progressed significantly in some way.

So I'm going to list a few more of Hillbilly's posts that helped me. A lot of what we are saying is repetition, but sometimes it helps to hear it in a different way. I don't want to take credit for his words, so I'm pasting them here:


"The first and final hurdle to getting well is and was and shall forever be when you no longer care how you feel because you have determined that your ailments are benign and can no longer scare you or keep you from accomplishing anything. A disciplined mental approach to thinking about accomplishing your daily tasks despite bodily rumblings is essential while you recover. Self-discipline is the no. 1 goal. You have to take it seriously and do it always. No exceptions. Despair over how you feel even for an instant has chemical byproducts that worsen the way you feel. Imagine what happens if you despair all day, every day for months or years over symptoms that are created out of despair to begin with. Ironic, isn't it?. The worst thing facing you is emotional chemical releases, which are nothing at all, really. They will burn up in time if allowed to without cycling through the additional negative reactions to how you feel.

"In my opinion, it is best for people in recovery to not read forums of any type after they have reached a point of acceptance that they suffer from a benign process of their nervous system that should be ignored as a barrier to living their daily lives as fully as possible. The reason(s) why are numerous, but you certainly are experiencing the most important, which is that you are highly susceptible to negative influences in your thinking at present, and any strongly worded complaint or description of someone else's can and often does become a reality in your own life.

This you can experience for a lifetime if not put out of your mind and the activities of life taken back up. All crutches, including reassurance, must be removed and the person relearn to trust him/herself and become your own source of strength going forward, not just while you recover, but for the rest of your life. "

"The "tools" of recovery, as they are called, are reminders that counter the thinking and behaviors that make us sick and keep us sick. There is a four-part example on the self-help systems website that explains how all this works. Ultimately, it is the act of humility, or acceptance, that saves us. We give up the fight to win outwardly and look inwardly for our strength to carry on. We cannot increase our stature with others, and this is often at the core of the problems we face. We can seek self-acceptance and accomplish what we need to in order to be productive members of a group (work, family, team, community), and that is the great wisdom of this approach. Accept yourself as no better or worse than anyone else, just a dude trying to get by. The stuff that breaks your back is almost certain to be outside your control.

The ironic thing about this is that the wisdom of the ancients has all revolved around self-control and discipline. The world is crazy, society is corrupt, but with training and discovery of our inner strength, we don't have to play along. We don't have to rail and rant, just decide yes or no. That is a powerful tool. The will says yes or no. Choose. Wisely.

Examples of the "tools" are below:

Treat mental health as a business and not as a game.
Humor is our best friend, temper is our worst enemy.
If you can't change a situation, you can change your attitude towards it.
Be self-led, not symptom-led.
Nervous symptoms and sensations are distressing but not dangerous.
Temper is, among other things, blindness to the other side of the story.
Comfort is a want, not a need.
There is no right or wrong in the trivialities of every day life.
Calm begets calm, temper begets temper.
Don't take our own dear selves too seriously.
Feelings should be expressed and temper suppressed.
Helplessness is not hopelessness.
Some people have a passion for self-distrust.
Temper maintains and intensifies symptoms.
Do things in part acts.
Endorse yourself for the effort, not only for the performance.
Have the courage to make a mistake.
Feelings are not facts.
Do the things you fear and hate to do.
Fear is a belief—beliefs can be changed.
Every act of self-control leads to a sense of self-respect.

 

One more, one of my all-time favorites of his:


"There is a chapter in Abraham Low's book that spells out exactly why people don't recover when they are in the midst of suffering from nerves/TMS. It is simple as pie, so logical, and yet so very, very difficult to come to grips with.

Here he was, an erudite physician with a roomful of cured patients telling their stories of suffering away, being unable to leave their homes, go to work, care for their young. Multiple hospitalizations, shock therapy, addictions, abuse, negligence, a morass of human suffering. New patients and those still suffering after years of treatment were brought in for meetings and given the chance to account for themselves in front of the group and get feedback. The ones who got well absorbed the doctor's explanations and got back to life. Their symptoms hung around for a while, but the power of the many exhortations from the doctor and those who had come through, many of whom were thought to have little hope before, buoyed them between meetings.

The cases were summed up so beautifully and eloquently, that it bears repeating here. He says, and I'm paraphrasing, that the patient sees his suffering as special, unique, is jealous of others who've listened and done as they were instructed, doubts that the suffering of others is nearly so acute as theirs, thinks it's very easy for the doctor to give instructions to do things that cause them to have panics and pains because he doesn't suffer, and on and on. That resonated with me because that is EXACTLY what I thought and believed at the time.

And despite whatever cure rates that he could publish or espouse, some people just simply couldn't believe that their nerves could cause such widespread havoc within the body's functions. He would remind them each week that they didn't find him by accident, that they had all seen a litany of physicians, had a battery of tests, and what ultimately convinced them to try was that there wasn't anything left to do but give in and comply with doctor's orders, to join the group instead of standing on the sidelines and criticizing and holding themselves out as special and unique. Humility is a very powerful healer because it calms, orients, and instructs.

This board and the many like it that are dedicated to functional illnesses and conditions, is literally peppered with examples of this. There's a new symptom of the day, a post about anyone who's dealt with it, asking is this TMS, and does anyone have experience dealing with it. Yes, we've all had it or something similar, yes, it disrupted our lives and drove some of us to the brink of sanity and/or suicide, and yes, it is curable in the same manner that others have followed. But do you believe it and will you do what's necessary to overcome it and take responsibility for your own suffering and your own healing? Only you can answer, and it makes little difference what you can come up with in way of a pithy rebuke or well-documented rebuttal.

What do you believe is causing your symptoms? If you think something other than nerves is to blame, then why did you find this board, how did you post this question, and why are you reading this answer? If it is because you are still gathering information, that's fine. But there isn't anything anyone can say to assuage your suffering other than, "Wow! Sorry to hear that. Hope that doesn't require surgery." For those of us who remember full well how badly we suffered, how we thought, whose minds have been changed through reading and sharing and even arguing, we can simply say accept it. It is nothing, and you are healthy as a horse. Be glad and of good cheer. You will thank us later. For now, you have a life to lead. Go lead it courageously."

 

Rogue Wave, I so appreciate your response. More than ever, while reading this thread you and Miffybunny have made points that I hadn’t really thought of before, and this has helped to change the way I think about these sensations. Talking about how our physiological state can be altered during protracted times of stress, and that our thoughts can become a loop have helped me to see things differently. Also, the idea of being willing to suffer can end suffering is such an eye opener - some great philosophical stuff there.

I will reread Hillbilly’s and Ace1’s posts and then really try to let it all go. As my husband says in a joking way, I’m the healthiest sick person he’s ever seen. My doctor said he agreed.

Thank you so much for your help. I truly appreciate it.

 

Hi RogueWave. Sorry for taking so long to respond. I try not visit this or any other forum anymore - for reasons that you go on to mention in this thread - but I never make any progress with the 'live your life'/stop-looking-for-answers-and-reassurance strategy and out of desperation eventually check in again. So for better of worse, I'm here now.

Very briefly: I've had depression and anxiety (possibly OCD, certainly OCD spectrum) since approximately age 17. Pain started age 19. I'm 31 now. I've had many physical symptoms. Primary was upper back pain for ~5 years, then neck pain for ~7 (far and away my #1 fixation). Pain is never worse than 5/10 pain, but I find it extremely distressing at all times, completely regardless of level. Nothing much of note has been found on MRIs. Some degeneration maybe. No physical interventions - and I've done it all - have made the slightest difference beyond a few minutes. I've been working at this from a strictly TMS perspective for 8 years or more. I have seen many therapists, OCD specialists, TMS therapists, etc etc. I've worked with 3 different psychologists at the Pain Psychology Center, 2 in person. I've spoken lots with Alan Gordon and Howard Schubiner via email and phone. I have driven many TMS'ers mad with my questions and pleas for help (at least two of whom are present on this thread). I have read and reread all of Sarno, Claire Weekes, Abraham Low. I've read and reread all of Hillbilly's posts and Dorado's and the others who emphasize the kind of behavioral approach you're advocating (if I understand you correctly). I've also done thousands of hours of vipassana/mindfulness meditation which is based on a similar perspective on suffering, resistance, etc. I have never, and I mean never, made any meaningful progress. If you want, I could tell you more about the presentation of symptoms, behavioral correlations. I'll leave it there for now because I don't want this to turn into a novel.

I don't know at this stage. I can tell you I no longer buy, and was never that impressed with, the straight ahead Sarno take on repressed emotions, distraction mechanism, etc. I guess at this stage I'm more inclined to think of it in terms of a stress response, somaticized anxiety disorder, learned neural pathways. That sort of thing à la Schubiner. I do believe that there are a lot of contradictory elements in the myriad descriptions of TMS. I'm not comfortable viewing these seeming contradictions as just part and parcel of an 'evolving' understanding of TMS, or as different ways of saying the same thing, or as a choose-your-own-adventure or any of the other ways people here often try to explain away the contradictions. I think chronic pain is complicated and there is a lot we simply do not know, and I'm far from convinced that everyone or even most people can get better. I simply don't know. To be clear, these doubts have cropped up only after years of striving. If you'd asked me 7 years ago I'd have given you the straightforward definition and said it makes damned good sense. Nowadays ... beats me.

 

Leaving aside chronic pain for a moment, I continue to be open to this explanation of anxiety disorder. But I can also say that I've been trying to address anxiety from this perspective for even longer than I've been trying to address chronic pain. I'm currently back in my parents' home, in my childhood bedroom, and found an old dogeared copy of Hope and Help for Your Nerves by Claire Weekes. I first read that over a decade ago. I have read Abraham Low, the DARE books, At Last a Life, and have done a 3 month ACT (Acceptance and Commitment Therapy) course. I get the theory, but I have never had any success with it. Sometimes I think I'm just torturing myself, or at least kidding myself, to keep trying again and again to accept the discomfort and push forward with a meaningful life until the brain gets the message. The brain is not getting the message.

 

So glad you clocked in Eskimoeskimo. You’ve started one hell of a thread here. cheers, marls

 

I'm not 100% convinced that chronic pain is just another anxiety symptom. Maybe, maybe not. Those older vintage books you cite don't talk about pain as a symptom in the same way. You're comfortable plugging chronic pain in there as synonymous with any other anxiety symptom, but I'm not ready - or more accurately, no longer ready - to make that leap. Maybe some pain is due to stress and fixation. Maybe some pain is structural. Maybe some pain which is structural is magnified by stress and fixation. Who says the body wants to heal? We're evolved to survive to reproductive age and reproduce, not necessarily to live a pain-free life. And there are plenty of diseases and syndromes which interfere with the body's 'desire' to heal. That's what disease is. With cancer, for example, we can't just say 'the body wants to heal' so just get out of the way to let the body do its thing. So the question is still simply: 'is chronic pain in the remediable stress-dysfunction category or the chronic untreatable disease/syndrome category?'

As far as the addiction aspect, interesting food for thought. But I think lots of questions remain to be answered. Just because stress instigates the release of certain hormones or affects the balance of neurotransmitters does not necessarily mean that that resultant brain chemistry is addictive. Yes there are dopamine reward pathways involved in addiction, but that doesn't mean that every hormone or neurotransmitter is 'addictive.' Stress may be correlated with higher cortisol levels and lower serotonin levels, but that does not necessarily mean that the brain is 'addicted' to high cortisol levels and low serotonin levels. To emphasize, I'm not ruling an addiction aspect out at all ... just mulling over.

Your last statement is I think a CBT perspective. Having been in therapy for 12 years, I've done my fair share of CBT exercises. Still waiting for the results.

 

I find this intuitively appealing. Which is why I've been drawn to Hillbilly, Dorado, Weekes, and Schubiner over Sarno, Ozanich, Sachs ...

But I have found this intuitively appealing for 8 years. I have tried everything under the sun to try to cultivate this attitude towards my pain and other symptoms. And before anyone says it, yes yes yes this includes trying to not try so hard and trying to not try to try to not try so hard and trying to not try and ...

Accept suffering and the suffering ceases .... okay .... how? I'm not the Buddha here

 

Not proud of sounding (/being) so cynical and petulant here. But that's where I'm at. I suspect many others are too.

 

@RogueWave

I see many, many people on this forum who seem to have, and say they have, lost the fear of the pain and moved on with life, but without then experiencing alleviation or even diminishment of their symptoms. There are quite a few posts to that effect here in just the last few days alone.

Come to think of it, even "pain management" entails quite a bit of the CBT and ACT stuff. But they don't expect that that will lead to resolution of symptoms. Rather they are aiming for improved functioning.

Maybe this behavioral approach works for some people and not others, or some types of chronic pain and not others. Even if we accept that chronic pain is not caused by the sorts of structural abnormalities that doctors usually point to doesn't necessarily mean that everybody can get better or that everyone can get better via this approach. Maybe there are 10,000 different types of chronic pain disorder. Who knows

 

Heck, even just 2 types would go a long way towards explaining the extremely inconsistent results of these 'strategies'

 

Slight aside here, but since I'm venting my spleen I also want to say ...

Yes I 'saw myself on every page' of Sarno, Low, Weekes. But isn't that the way self-help books always are? It's like astrological readings. It always sounds so personal, so true, so profound, so applicable. But that's just how we're wired. And when we're in pain and desperate all the more so.

 

I sometimes wonder if discovering the TMS world hasn't made my life worse, because this is the only group of people who tell me that my pain can go away. I wonder if I would have suffered less had I just accepted the conventional wisdom that chronic pain rarely (read 'never') resolves. Then again, if what I've been trying to do for 8 years is accept the pain, maybe it's not so different. Lord I'm sick of these conundrums.

 

I can definitively say that in no other area of my life would I have taken seriously a freudian alternative medicine self-help book just because it has 5,000 positive reviews on Amazon. So does the sunscreen I just bought and it turns out it sucks. Am I only here because I'm desperate and can't stomach the prognosis of permanent pain?

 

Answer, probably

 

Sorry everyone

 

Maybe we forget to feel and just overthink everything?

 

I take issue with 2 things you have written. I'll address this one first: The first sentence of this post is ignoring the millions of people who HAVE eliminated their symptoms. The people who just "get on with life" and deal with the symptoms never overcame the root cause. If they did they did, the symptoms would cease to have a purpose. It's crucial I challenge these assertions because there are thousands of people who read here and many are actively struggling so this needs to be clarified in no uncertain terms. You are omitting truth here and choosing to focus on the negative.

To reduce the entire discipline and science of psychology to the realm of fortunetelling is a defense mechanism. Dr. Sarno and other experts in the mind body field have described a specific personality type: perfectionism, goodism, self sacrificing, people pleasing, ....basically people who put a lot of pressure on themselves. I personally know many people who do NOT fit this category. Your comparison to astrology is not apt. Astrology is a hodge podge of traits under 12 signs. I can't believe I'm even typing this tbh.

If you don't believe that you can get better or some never get better @eskimoeskimo , that is your opinion and belief. If you consider psychology to be nothing more than divination and fantasy, this is clearly not the place for you. There is a whole medical world out there you can pursue, OR you can just accept that this is your lot in life as you seem to indicate, but it's a tremendous disservice to others reading here.

 

I think TMS work is experiential, not intellectual, this is why books and seminars are informative but applying what you learn is more difficult because you can't force it, you feel happier, lighter, and more relaxed when you don't fixate intellectually. I still get bothersome symptoms due to doubt, fear, inactivity etc.

 

Hey Eskimo ..... no sorry stuff here. Let it rip mate. I reckon you might be talking for and to a good few members. So much from all directions in this thread. marls