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What else is there - Seriously

Discussion in 'Support Subforum' started by eskimoeskimo, Aug 7, 2020.

  1. RogueWave

    RogueWave Well known member

    I used to have Dr. Sarno’s lecture video from the 90s. Old, but his points about social programming are still true. He gave the example of Carpal Tunnel Syndrome, and how so many people seemed to be getting it (it’s even worse now). Everyone these days ‘knows’ it’s because of posture, repetitive motion, etc. But he goes on to say decades ago people worked long hours on big, heavy, non-electric typewriters, and non-ergonomic chairs, yet there was almost no reported cases of wrist pain.

    So how is it that our lives are much easier physically, with less physically demanding jobs (for most of us), but chronic pain issues continue to skyrocket?

    We are taught through many means that our bodies are weak, and that’s getting worse too. In my opinion, this plays into the whole TMS idea because it’s just one more thing to stress about.

    Like Low said ‘feelings are not facts’. Just because your body feels weak doesn’t mean it is. I proved this to myself many times when I was at my worst. I’d feel so tired and weak, but I’d drag myself to the gym, and oddly enough once I got started I found my strength levels were fine.

    Keep going, and when things get bad just remind yourself it’s harmless. ‘Distressing but not dangerous’. You might not be able to stop a panic attack while it is occurring, but you can practice observing it. Don’t create what Weekes calls ‘secondary fear’ which is fear of the feelings/thoughts, because it just creates an entirely new burst of fear hormone release.

    There is an interview on YouTube somewhere with her where she mentions she would occasionally wake up in the middle of the night with a panic attack. The interviewer asked her ‘what do you when that happens?’ and she just kinda laughed and said ‘oh it’s just more of an annoyance, so I just wait to fall back to sleep.’ No fear, no ‘woe is me!’ Just a ‘meh!’ and she was able to fall back to sleep.

    Takes practice but it can be done.
    Hillbilly and Balsa11 like this.
  2. TrustIt

    TrustIt Well known member

    i am dealing with ongoing tms issues, but i want to talk about one thing relating to panic attacks. i had awful panic attacks (ER type) some years ago. i happened on a site that showed an animation of what a panic attack looked like and the huge insight i got from it is that "it isn't hurting you physically"! i had read too much about what all stress can cause and every time i would get stressed i would resist/fight it thinking i was hurting myself even more! what a catch 22 loop! anyway, the second i REALIZED i did not need to stress about the stress itself, i felt safe. i have never had another one. i still had a low grade anxiety up until a couple of months ago and i attribute it's complete resolution to my acceptance...and then patience...god give me patience!!!...of the tms diagnosis that i am fine and i trust my body's intelligence. i know with my knower that this path is right for me and i am better every day.
  3. Mark1122

    Mark1122 Well known member

    YEs thanks,

    I know about that typewriter example its what made me doubt my own pain symptoms the only tthing was that it started with panic attacks like 8 years ago and i used to game like 8-12 hours a day before these attacks. Now to distract myself from these panic attacks i would game 16 hours a day for like 2 years. My body was cramped behind the pc cause of the panic/anxiety and i was behind it for 16 hours without exercise. I kindof told myself ofcourse u can get it but other like professional esports gamers dont because u were cramped all the time during the gaming cause of the anxiety. And they arent, just like i wasnt before i had panic attacks and i had no pain back then. I guess this is probabl the TMSer talking but still it sometimes sets doubt in me.

    And i mean 16 hours a day is a LOT and probably not healthy.

    I watched weekes before, maybe i should watch her again to refresh it a bit, thanks.

    Now on the opposite side, i do know i feel lonely a lot and put this away from when i was 12 by gaming a lot. But i really started feeling lonely at 18 and here the anxiety started a bit and alcohol abuse as well. So i know im not 100% psychologically. So that's a strong point for me having TMS i guess. Im insecure and depressed from when i was 17-18. And still am.
    Hillbilly and Balsa11 like this.
  4. Tms_joe

    Tms_joe Well known member

    Any situation you encounter, the expectation you go into it with, is the most likely outcome.
    Drew and TrustIt like this.
  5. Mark1122

    Mark1122 Well known member

    I readt this a couple of times and i guess you are right..kinda scary since me and my family always are so negative

    And im always scared that i will be alone and people think im weird or unlikeable and most of the times this gets me to the place that il be alone because i will isolate myself before they do
  6. grapefruit

    grapefruit Peer Supporter

    Have you tried running?
  7. Dorado

    Dorado Beloved Grand Eagle

    Beautifully stated.
    Balsa11 likes this.
  8. Otis

    Otis New Member

    I signed on as a new member today in order to say thank you to Hillbilly. Your posts at the TMShelp site were a great part of my recovery 5-6 years ago. I highly recommend those still suffering here to visit the forum and do a search for him. I used to put the words “the” or “a” in the “search for” box and then choose his member name. I didn’t read the posts by those listing their symptoms and doubts. I was too affected by them. I only read his replies, because they gave me confidence and knowledge to understand what was happening and how to climb out the hell hole that is TMS/anxiety. Dr. Sarno led me to the door, but I needed more to lead me through. I read all of his posts (and even copied and pasted some to word docs) over and over. Ace1 and Balto’s posts were helpful as well. There are many people on these TMS sites giving great advice, but you have to find those voices that resonate with you. Only read posts of those who have recovered. Stop reading the ones full of doubt and lists of symptoms. I know this seems harsh and insensitive, but this forum should be a place of knowledge and boosting confidence for the sole purpose of recovery. (IMHO)

    I only returned here last year because I had a recurrence of symptoms after a car accident. It sent my nervous system into an immediate state of anxiety and then the old physical symptoms returned. At its peak I had an episode of vertigo and then lingering dizziness on and off for months. I returned to Hillbilly’s posts and then found Roguewave here. His posts have been really helpful as well. I only have symptoms occasionally, mostly during conditioned circumstances and activities, but I have lost the fear of them. This was the most difficult part, because it was something I’d never experienced before. I almost didn’t drive my daughter to college 900 miles away because I was in such a bad state. I realized how incredibly tragic it would be to miss that one time event and mustered the courage to go. I’m so glad I did. We are stronger than we think. I have full confidence that I will completely recover now.

    Hillbilly, thank you for returning to once again be a light that guides people back to well being and their lives. And thank you Roguewave and others on here for doing the same. I’ll leave you with a few words from Hillbilly...

    “You can rise above this condition by disciplining your mind and body to do as you wish and to hell with how it reacts. It will react based upon expectations you have created anyway. This is the reprogramming you must do. Think about the glory that awaits you and the relief of living the life you’ve always wanted to, free of the silliness of doubt and fear.”
    RogueWave, Hillbilly, Balsa11 and 3 others like this.
  9. Kozas

    Kozas Well known member

    The problem with 24/7 pain is also that I don't remember 'me' prior to pain. It's like painfree version of my died 10 years ago. Thanks to meditation I'm able to cope with pain and just get going with my life, but it's like driving car on low gear. I just feel something is not right, something very fundamental, no matter how much I try to be 'normal me'. I do everything I need to do, I work, I exercise, I eat, I do what I enjoyed before pain. But it all so mechanical and without sens of real joy. It's a weird state, and I usually don't want to think about it too much, but on the other hand all the work, exercises, watching movies or reading books feels like distracting myself from all those dark clouds.
    zclesa and Balsa11 like this.
  10. Hillbilly

    Hillbilly Peer Supporter

    All I can say in response to that is I’m humbled and gratified that you took the time to say thank you. Glad you made the decision to go with your daughter as well. I’m delivering my baby girl to college this fall if Covid allows. Can’t imagine not being there, since she’s attending the same school at which I met her mother many years ago. All the best to you.
    Lizzy and Balsa11 like this.
  11. Mark1122

    Mark1122 Well known member

    I've been really trying again, but the pain and exhaustion feel like its too much. So ive been drinking again...... it's the only thing that can relax me. I get hope i go live my life but the pain and exhaustion and heart pressure gets to unbearable levels. I honestly dont know how you all managed to conquer them, deep respect, ive been trying 3+ years, kinda makes me feel like a failure. Why can't i do it? I am going to log off this forum as well now, i don't want to drag others down with me, i guess it's not for me. Good luck everyone i wish you the best.
  12. Balsa11

    Balsa11 Well known member

    Please don't add another thing to withdraw from into the mix... maybe go to bed earlier for a while or something. Self care is paramount. Breathe with your belly to loosen up the tight chest feelings. Please be kind to yourself. You're not a failure, you're just going through a really hard time.
    Last edited: Feb 18, 2021
  13. Balsa11

    Balsa11 Well known member

    Part of the TMS approach is being kind to yourself no matter how many times you have relapsed. Instead of barking at yourself to get back up, tell yourself you'll always have your back. Give yourself the patience to get back up.
  14. Balsa11

    Balsa11 Well known member

    As in don't identify with your challenges, even though you have to accept them and face them.
  15. Balsa11

    Balsa11 Well known member

    I've noticed that reminiscing about the past with loved ones has helped me regain some of those old ways of feeling and being. Sometimes you have to redirect your sensory attention to how the "distractions" feel and how they are meaningful to you as moments of life. What if the dark clouds are distractions/defenses and habitually amped up pain signals when otherwise subtle feelings or things to do are ignored? What if, even though TMS is happening, you are not "always" a TMSer? I think we identify too much with this aspect of ourselves. Also don't push TMS away, sometimes it rebounds.
  16. eskimoeskimo

    eskimoeskimo Well known member

    Thank you for writing again Hillbilly. I've been trying to just take this message on board and resist arguing/dismissing/rejecting, but I don't want to delay responding any longer for fear you might think I haven't read you carefully and gratefully.

    ... But I am struggling. It is not that I don't find your explanation plausible. Far from it. I have always found this sort of explanation of what I'm experiencing plausible, intuitive, and downright appealing. Not least because it's an explanation which also points towards a way out. The trouble is that this has been my operating explanation for a decade. I won't waste your time by droning on about how I've "been here already, done that, tried that, didn't work" (which is how I feel, I'm sorry to say) and instead raise two specific concerns:

    1. A central theme is a recognition that the symptoms are "not dangerous." I take this to mean that the symptoms are not evidence that the body is damaged or undergoing further damage in a biomechanical sense. I take it that this realization is extremely relieving for many ... for some maybe even enough to cut through the whole charade and move on with life. But for me, the belief that the symptoms are dangerous is not that I believe my neck is breaking down just because it hurts. Again it's more that I am terrified of stress, terrified of the damage that chronic stress is doing to my heart, my brain, and my appearance. And also that chronic pain itself, regardless of cause (be it physical or psychological), is damaging to the brain, raises blood pressure, keeps cortisol high, etc. Of course you can say, as you did, that it doesn't help to stress about the stress. But how to get out of that toxic loop has totally eluded me for going on half my life now. Stress is dangerous. That I'm still in constant pain is dangerous, even if it's not the case that my spine is crumbling. And that's not even getting into the sense in which it's dangerous in that it has completely altered my personality, damaged my relationships, and made life a hellish experience.

    2. I don't know how to counter the fact that at times throughout this ordeal, my life has been very ordered, 'adult,' active, social, balanced (fully admit that this is not now, nor the preponderance of these 10 years), but that the pain and OCD and depression and anxiety and other physical symptoms were no less - nor less taxing - as a result seems to throw quite a wrench in this understanding of pain. Kozas is I think describing something similar. My aim here is certainly not to assemble some kind of chorus of doubters, but rather to get better. If 'living one's life' is the way out of this hell, why has it never made one damned difference for me. Here sometimes people also say "well maybe the symptoms didn't go away, but at least your life was more productive, you were more functional, isn't that better?" ... however I can say that throughout those more functional stretches I was at all times every bit as suicidal and could recognize that pressing on was not sustainable let alone curative. To be clear, I'm not talking about weeks or months long experiments in 'living life' and then giving up. I'm talking about years.

    I will say I like your idea of finding a hard-nosed mentor who won't put up with my whining. And please no need to be diplomatic, what I'm looking for is frankness. I just want to get better.

    Thank you again and I hope you're well
  17. eskimoeskimo

    eskimoeskimo Well known member

    I feel the same way, and this experience itself is frightening and causes me to despair. Getting to a chronic pain free existence feels like an impossibility
    Kozas likes this.
  18. eskimoeskimo

    eskimoeskimo Well known member

    The truth is I'm absolutely terrified what chronic pain and chronic depression are doing to me. I'm convinced it has shriveled up my brain and I'm going to die prematurely.

    I have no idea whatsoever how to be outcome independent. I'm not sure I even believe it's possible.

    And to another question you asked @Hillbilly, I would just say I don't know what's causing my pain. Maybe it's stress and tension. I hope it is. Maybe it's hardwired into my brain in a way that can't be undone. I simply do not know.
    Kozas likes this.
  19. Tms_joe

    Tms_joe Well known member

    How can you be convinced of ANYTHING? Read what you typed from a 3rd person point of view.

    I see someone with no respect for, ironically, "THE TRUTH." Most of your problems go away when you start seeking and respecting truth. If you don't know, YOU DO NOT KNOW! You don't kinda know. You're not kinda right. You KNOW something is true or not. There's no wiggle room.

    Your post here indicates that you are unsure if you believe in TMS and that you chose to believe things "just because." You will not get better as long either or both of those are true.

    Imagine trying to teach a 4 year old that 5+5=10, but they'd already learned it equals 9. They keep fighting with you even though, deep down, they can already see you are correct, along with the rest of the world. That's what you are doing. Nobody will ever be able to help you until you allow it.
  20. BloodMoon

    BloodMoon Beloved Grand Eagle

    Maybe it didn't make any difference to you because you weren't actually living the kind of life that you really wanted/needed to live? Perhaps you were mainly living from your head and not your heart?
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2021
    tgirl and Tennis Tom like this.

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