1. Alan has completed the new Pain Recovery Program. To read or share it, use this updated link: https://www.tmswiki.org/forum/painrecovery/
    Dismiss Notice
Dismiss Notice
Our TMS drop-in chat is tomorrow (Saturday) from 3:00 PM - 4:00 PM Eastern (now on US Standard Time) . It's a great way to get quick and interactive peer support, with BruceMC as your host. Look for the red Chat flag on top of the menu bar!

A word about outcome independence

Discussion in 'Alan Gordon TMS Recovery Program' started by Alan Gordon LCSW, Sep 4, 2012.

  1. Karim

    Karim Peer Supporter

    I only can continúe if the body Is already warmed up . I have to have the suffocating effects a couple of times in a sesión AND then i can excercise insnt that weird
  2. Karim

    Karim Peer Supporter

    Ir feels like my head Is gonna Explode from high blood pressure
  3. Karim

    Karim Peer Supporter

    Dr schubiner says that not all pain Is caused by repressed emotions
  4. Karim

    Karim Peer Supporter

    At first whenmy symptoms came out they treated it as something emotional when to psycologist Psyquiatrist and nothing Man the pain was unbereable so one dr decides Is sympathetic stuff not caused by emotions
  5. JanAtheCPA

    JanAtheCPA Beloved Grand Eagle

    If you have high blood pressure you must be treated immediately by a doctor, because that is a serious medical problem.

    We can not tell you if you should be worried about symptoms of exercise stress. If you have been medically cleared to exercise, you need to consult a trainer.

    But Karim, here's what I see as I look at your barrage of posts: you appear to have some kind of severe anxiety or panic disorder. You need mental health therapy, beyond what you can get from books, and beyond what you can get here. I'm very sorry for you, but that's the hard truth as I see it. Please, get help right away for this. You may be suffering severe emotional trauma, perhaps due to your accidents, and you need help we are not qualified to give you here.

    We only work on TMS here. We are not medical or mental health professionals and we can't diagnose, and we ultimately do not
    discuss symptoms. This is because if you have TMS, you learn that the only way to start healing is to recognize that the details of the symptoms do not matter.

    I see that you need help, that's obvious. But you don't think you have TMS. You have rejected or ignored all the TMS advice you have received.

    If you don't have TMS, and if you refuse to accept the TMS methods of healing, then you must get help somewhere else.
  6. paula58

    paula58 New Member

    I get this concept in principle but struggle to see where tuning into my body and not overdoing things when my head is feeling a bit dodgy fits in. So, i should do what i planned to do regardless of how I feel on a particular day as otherwise I am encouraging the pain and babying myself? And in terms of pain that arises out of this choice, is taking analgesics also a no no for the same reason, that I am just perpetuating the cycle?
  7. miffybunny

    miffybunny Beloved Grand Eagle

    Analgesics cannot help in the case of TMS (psychogenic pain) because it's not acute (normal pain), it's chronic pain coming from neural circuits that are sending false alarm symptoms. At best it's a temporary placebo but in the long run, all you are doing is reinforcing the idea in your head that your problem is physical. It's basically counter productive. The goal is to reduce and eliminate fear , not symptoms. The more you focus on symptoms and sensations, the more you perpetuate the fear-pain-fear loop. The way to train your brain out of that loop is to gradually do little things that challenge those fears. You start small and build your way up so as to gain confidence. It's a shift in mindset from focus on the body to focus on your life. The more you do the things you need and want to do, the more you are getting practice at abolishing fear. When you lose the fear, the symptoms (the tms) goes away without you having to do anything, It ceases to have a purpose. There are also ways of calming down the brain and making it feel safe (creating safety) without using physical crutches (pills, pillows, looking for some magic bullet etc)...for example: guided mediations (there are lots on YT), walking in nature, doing a hobby you enjoy, calling a friend who makes you laugh, keeping a gratitude journal, saying affirmations etc etc.
    TG957 likes this.
  8. paula58

    paula58 New Member

  9. paula58

    paula58 New Member

    Thank you, this is very useful.
    miffybunny likes this.
  10. Cap'n Spanky

    Cap'n Spanky Well known member

    Wow, this outcome independence stuff is very helpful Thank you, Alan!!

    Thanks to Dr. Sarno and others, I've been very fortunate to recover from all my pain issues for many years now. But TMS is a sneaky and persistent bastard. Recently, I've struggled with something that's a little hard to describe. It's kind of a hyper-immune, allergic reaction that results in fatigue and a sick feeling. It's brought on by exercise. It's almost like I have a cold, but I don't. Anyway... I'm seeing success applying Alan's concepts.

    To reinforce it in my head, I'm going to paraphrase my personal interpretation of outcome independence. Some of you may quibble with my paraphrase and that's cool. I welcome other views.

    Live my life. Focus on the things I want and hope for.
    Don't worry or obsess about my symptoms. Don't project about the future of my symptoms.
    - In a sense; minimize and trivialize the symptoms to their appropriate status in my life.
    - Often, even ignore symptoms.
    And this is key: When symptoms do grab my attention, take a step back and focus on the emotions surrounding my symptoms, not the symptoms themselves.
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2020
    Zuz and TG957 like this.
  11. mugwump

    mugwump Well known member

    Thank you for sharing your words, Alan!
  12. Balsa11

    Balsa11 Well known member

    Maybe making it more consistent and less intense?
  13. Cap'n Spanky

    Cap'n Spanky Well known member

    Hi Balsa11 - yes, I think that's right!

    By-the-way, I've had a slight change of heart regarding my statements above "... ignore symptoms", etc. After going through Alan's Pain Recovery Program, I now see it as mindfully observing our pain/symptoms in a detached way. Focus like a laser on the emotions and fear they stir up. Do some self-soothing and teach our minds that there's nothing to fear from the pain.

    We may still want to ignore and minimize pain/symptoms sometimes. From experience, I know this works. But to force ourselves to always ignore them might actually create more fear and anxiety around them. It's more honest to confront them head on. This is something new and profound I learned from Alan's Pain Recovery Program.
    JanAtheCPA and Balsa11 like this.
  14. Sayde

    Sayde New Member

    Hi, where can I find forests video?
  15. Zuz

    Zuz Peer Supporter

    I have questions about this approach that Ithought I understood?
    I tried and it didn’t end up well. I have chronic back pain for twenty years with occasional accute moments when moving just a bit is 10/10 pain. So I tried not care for a 5/10 back pain and still do a tiny walk that I actually managed to enjoy and then I had such a worsening of the pain that I was fainting from it and they were thinking about sensing me to a overloaded hospital during pandemic. So clearly, that was not a good idea for me at that moment.
    I have been bedridden for four days and start to slowly be able to take mini walks in the house by myself without muscle relaxants and anti-inflammatoires ( which I try to not take but the pain was just too much).
    So now I know I won’t just ´ignore ´ it and try to do things, I am completely terrified of the possible outcome.
    So I try mindfulness and reassuring my brain we are safe now. It’s hard because I am not sure it’s not partly structural ( symptoms of flare ups seem to match scans). I have many other symptoms ( stomach pain, eye, theeth, random other pains) that I don’t panic about and it’s not too hard to ´ignore ´ and they do resolve. I am hoping to reduce some of the chronic back pain with TMS approach but I am stuck with these accute huge back pains.
    I wish I could see a physician who knows enough about the body to be able to tell me exactly if or which pain is structural, which is not, if I truly can injure myself when doing some things and which back symptoms have no connection and are TMS.
    I am not sure how to recover from the acute pain episode. I clearly cannot go further than my fear- just thinking about it starts a panic attack now. I focus on the physical sensation of the fear and try to breathe and reassure the brain.
    I *think* going slowly, as if it was a recuperation after a structural injury would be more possible and generate less fear?
    Because I think, after doing some work here, reducing fear should perhaps be my priority. I am just beginning to learn how to even feel safe in my brain who had always felt danger everywhere ( and was kind of right for the first 32 years of my life).
    Does that sound like a good approach?
    Thank you and sorry for my English it’s my third language .
  16. TG957

    TG957 Beloved Grand Eagle

    Yes. Fear is your worst enemy.
    Zuz likes this.
  17. Zuz

    Zuz Peer Supporter

    Thank you.
    I will basically proceed with myself as with a terrified dog when I work with them: doing stuff easy enough to reduce fear.
    I often know what emotional stuff is behind the onset of acute episodes but the pain is so much worse then any emotions out there. Will try explaining this to my brain.
    I wonder if what starts as TMS can actually get to a structural/physical problem? Like we know stress can cause real ulcers. Is that possible in a acute back pain attack? Where you end up actually injuring your back physically so need to heal physically also afterwards? ( while doing all the emotional work)
    Last edited: May 10, 2021
  18. TG957

    TG957 Beloved Grand Eagle

    You are correct again. Stress can force the muscles to contract and cause damage. Barrage of hormones can result in eventual inflammation or autoimmune disorder, etc, etc
    Balsa11 likes this.
  19. Zuz

    Zuz Peer Supporter

    It makes sense then for my last flare up. I think I know why the original one started ( tricky: mix of bad physical position and bad news that worried me) but for the second really worse- I could not find other than getting moving too much too fast.
    I read so often to get moving as fast as possible it’s confusing. I suppose for tms pain that did not get to physical dammage?

    For other things than the back I know... even my eldery very matter of fact endocrinologist told me my diabetes type 1 started at 31 yo because of stress.

    thank you so much for the explanation.
    TG957 likes this.
  20. Balsa11

    Balsa11 Well known member

    The fainting was probably vasovagal syncope which is temporary and harmless. Are you bedridden because you're tired(like actually needing more sleep or rest) or because of pain/being afraid to move? What area was the back pain(was it on the left side)? Are you feeling better now?
    Zuz likes this.

Share This Page