Issues with Running

Hi - Thanks for your post, I appreciate the comments and your thoughtfulness. I think I should clarify my relationship with running a bit better since I glossed over some of it above.

So, the truth is I usually do not like the actual act of running. Lots of things I don't like - the shortness of breath, the high heartrate, the effort, the pain (I'm talking pain from exertion here not joint/injury pain) the "creakiness" early on before the body warms up. Moving ourselves from a stasis to an active state - a highly active state at that - is jarring and shocking and the body (and child brain) don't like that!

But do genuinely like that I do it and continue to do it. It's complicated so I'll attempt to explain. I know it's good for me, it has produced great results with keeping weight off (my Dr visits are proof - I have the health stats at 53 of a 20something) and it is terrific at mental state rehabilitation (i.e. anti depressant). I do enjoy some of my other health pursuits more (cycling is downright fun sometimes - running is rarely fun), and I rarely feel the anxiety around those activities like I do with running, but I've determined that is almost always around the expectations and performance anxiety I feel with running. With a race on the calendar, it is a black/white judgment of performance measured in time. This can be stressful when you're a TMSer and seek perfection.

So no, I won't let my subconscious steer me away from this activity - not just for all those reasons above that I know it's good for me, but also damnit I will NOT let my TMS brain determine any aspect of my life. If none of those reasons existed above, I would still not allow this. It is the absolute antithesis of Sarno's "cure" - heck, it's one of the daily reminders (several actually) so it is practically a COMMANDMENT if I am going to pursue this way of life.

Sarno's daily reminders (7 thru 11)

Therefore, physical activity is not dangerous

And I MUST resume all normal physical activity

I will not be concerned or intimidated by the pain

I will shift my attention from pain to the emotional issues

I intend to be in control-NOT my subconscious mind

(emphasis mine)

 

I like your gumption. I’m going to take a clue from it. I think I give in too easily to my subconscious mind. It really takes a lot of grit from your core, doesn’t it? To stand up to this stuff and fight through the physical, painful—and even psychological—blockers.

I get it about the running. You do actually like it. You like what it does for you, so that’s liking it.

 

Hello @Mr Hip Guy

We have talked about running before, and I came on here today to post about some of my own running issues, and saw your post. It was interesting reading because I am newly interested in trail running over the roads (seems like more fun, as you point out). One thing I find interesting about your current situation is that you can dance and do other things without these symptoms. It is only running that brings it on. This would seem to me to point to TMS.

I wonder if indulging in the 15 minute warm up is making it worse? The first 15 minutes of your normal run could be your "warm up."

One thing I came here to post about today was wondering if I or my TMS brain keeps lowering the bar for introduction of symptoms. Before I was cognizant of my TMS I would need to run 30-40 miles a week and get in good shape for it to strike (usually just as I was coming off a good stretch of training and feeling confident). I went through the entire encyclopedia of common running injuries for about two years. I would ramp up, start doing well, get injured, take six weeks off, ramp up, start doing well, a new "injury." All of them new to me and fairly inexplicable.

Then I had a bout of intense pelvic pain that I resolved through TMS work and realized all those running "injuries" were probably TMS, too.

Interestingly, now I feel like the TMS symptoms come on much sooner when I start to ramp up my running or start looking ahead, gearing up for a race I want to do, etc. It's like my TMS brain is saying well since I know you know what I am now, I might as well just hit you immediately rather than trying to disguise this as an overuse injury.

Right now I'm dealing with foot/heel pain, which would no doubt be diagnosed as plantar fasciitis, even though I have in no way run enough miles in the last few weeks/months to get an overuse injury like this. What I have done the last few weeks is started to get excited about trail running and signed up for a couple trail races I'd really like to do. Again though the TMS is so tricky--the symptoms I have exactly mimic plantar fasciitis, and it is indeed quite painful, leaving me in this state of doubt. And I'm resolved to not hurry to the doctor for this, so.

I wonder if your TMS brain is hitting you with these symptoms at the start of your run because, like my TMS brain now, it knows you know what's going on relative to overuse injuries (like your hip) and so it's not wasting any time in trying to disguise itself that way anymore.

One more thing: If you follow running news like I do, you're probably aware of a famous female olympic marathoner recently diagnosed with dystonia, as her story has been written about in major running publications. Has your TMS brain locked onto this, perhaps?

Also if you have any advice on my "plantar fasciitis" I'd love to hear it!

 

Lots of stuff here to comment to, bear with me.

Trail Running = Fun. Yes, definitely. I actually think some of my current situation is that I've started to do a lot more road running preparing for this marathon than I've done in awhile. Trail running is just so much better in all ways that there is no comparison, it's almost like a different sport.

You're absolutely right that this "warmup" is TMS talking. It's the reason it goes away, not that I've actually "warmed up" but instead TMS brain has just given up and said "welp, I guess you're going to continue with this" instead. And what I meant by 'warmup' is that the first 15min of my run is this herky-jerky period that I seem to always have to work through anymore. I tried doing non-running "warmups" and they were a complete waste of time for me, I still had to go through 1.5 miles or so before I would begin to run normally anyway.

As far as symptoms rearing their head as you get further into training, or put a race on the calendar, or get near that race timewise - that is classic TMS and I have experienced that many times. You can see what it's trying to do if you step back and view it from some perspective. It's trying to sabotage the "event" because it is afraid (for you) of what it will bring on.

As for Plantar Fasciitis - oh yes, have dealt with that along with all the other classic running injuries. Fortunately, the last time I had it was just a few years ago (I think I mention it in my knee pain thread here) and after I had learned about TMS - it still fooled me for a few months (I can be dumb), but once I recognized it as TMS? Guess what, it went away.

And yep, I know all about Kara Goucher and her dystonia diagnosis. It's sad, but if you know anything about her (she has an autobiography out), it's easy to spot a TMS sufferer in her. You're right though, I'm pretty sure her predicament has impacted my subconscious. There's also a run blogger I follow that has Parkinson's now (she's in her late 40s so this is unusual) and I'm sure that has wormed it's way in on me too.

 

This has been quite a find, thank you again for sharing.

In her blog "why we can't stop exercising despite pain/injuries" she makes some insightful comments around training (whether it's running, cycling, weight lifting, etc).

https://www.thepfathlete.com/blog/why-we-can-t-stop-exercising-despite-pain-and-injuries (Why We Can’t Stop Exercising Despite Pain and Injuries)

I think alot of these ring true.

 

I think many of those things can be transposed into items of daily life that apply to anyone, not just athletes.
Her website features some really good tools like her wheel of Sports Performance, Life Grid and recovery charts. Really nice tools for athletes to use in conjunction with journaling and self-exploration. https://www.thepfathlete.com/resources (Resources)

 

I haven't had time to check in on this thread, but I need to update as some things have been happening.

After that run above where I just gritted my teeth and ran hard for 2m (I call this the @Baseball65 method), I had a bit of a breakthrough as the very next run my initial dystonic/herky-jerky symptoms were much less pronounced AND they last less time than the usual 15+ minutes. I also went on to have one of my best and most comfortable runs in quite awhile. I was encouraged through the weekend, including my 20m run on Saturday, the last really-long training run before my marathon.

But what's interesting is that with this mild breakthrough - guess what is happening? Yep, those of you know what's coming next...

I have had a bout of Plantar Fasciitis flare up! This is classic symptom-imperative and I actually see this as a good sign - maybe I have this initial issue on-the-run. And besides, I know how to deal with PF, having had it before - it is 100% a TMS equivalent.

 

Circling back on this thread for an update...

So I ran the marathon that I was training for, it was a few weeks ago. It went fine, it was an unusually hot day so my time was slower even than the slow time I was planning, but I finished it and even could find a few things to be happy about with the result.

After that, we did some touring in the area and I didn't run any during that time - which is a little odd for me, as usually on trips I like to use early morning time to run the area I'm in and I usually enjoy these little sightseeing adventures. Nope, just wasn't feeling it on this trip and I was perfectly fine with that. We did walk about 15000 steps on average every day and did some nice hikes and climbs on some mountainous terrain.

However, that's not really why I am back here to update - the odd thing is that in the last week and a half I did resume some of my running again - and get this, that odd dystonia feeling I've been experiencing seems to be a lot less. It's not 100% gone, but the herky-jerky feeling I've had in the first 10-15min of running is down at least 50%. So something happened getting that race behind me to change my mindset and get this hindrance out of the way. What that is, I don't know? I do know I was feeling a lot of stress and pressure about this marathon for some reason (even more so than the anxiety I feel about any race) and while training for it, I envisioned the time after it was done with tremendous relief. So something was going on there, even if i can't nail-down exactly what it was.

The plantar fascitis I mentioned in an earlier post has been persistent though - and it was pretty rough in the week after the marathon and doing all those steps.

I'm considering re-doing the SEP here at the site and see if I can uncover anything. I've done it before, but I think there may be value in revisiting it. None of my usual methods (evidence lists, rereading sarno, this forum, etc) have been able to help my current predicament so it's worth a try.

 

I've been working through the SEP again as I mentioned above. One of the things that is difficult is that since I've done it several times before, many of the day programs are so familiar and thus I lose patience with them (familiarity breeds contempt) but I try to recognize that's my TMS brain trying to sabotage my recovery.

Unfortunately my PF is as bad as ever. I had to cut a run short this morning because it hurt bad enough to the point it felt like tendons tearing. I have a pretty decent pain tolerance, and I am quite bullheaded, so this was significant. In the 4 hours since, it is very sensitive and extremely hard to even walk on.

I looked up the last time I dealt with this and it was about 2.5 years ago and I had to take a short break from running in order for it to resolve then. Probably will go in that direction this time, I have no races to train for so I can do plenty of other cross training options to keep some fitness. Feeling frustrated and disillusioned.

 

Same. Oddly I don't mind reading Sarno repeatedly but reading the same articles and watching the same videos I have previously just doesn't work for me. I've also written about the same things so many times I've exhausted them.

 

One thing I’ve noticed on this forum is that 6 people can give the same answer to a question but the asker can only “hear” one and does not even acknowledge the others. Perhaps you just need to find similar videos by someone else so that your mind “hears” the message.

 

I'm not sure who this is really directed to, but I try to take in what everyone says. I have someone here I talk to through messaging that is kind of "mentoring" me, but I still try to absorb recommendations across the board. I think there are just certain aspects of TMS that work better for me than others.

 

I don't think she was directing anywhere in particular just making the observation which I find alot of truth in. Depending on my state of mind at the time, many messages whoosh right by me and don't land. Going back through the SEP is a good idea, even if I just find one little nugget that is helpful.

 

Ditto. I think you and I attach alot of significance to Sarno as he feels like the "source" for us? I know I sorta look side-eyed at Schecter and Schubiner and Nicole-Sachs etc just based on my own default biases.

 

Nobody in particular, I just found that happened to myself (ah, resistance) and is a very strong trait in some folks.. especially those who ask the same questions on repeat without realizing they are doing it.

 

Do you practice mindfulness meditation when you run (which can also mean essentially practising 'somatic tracking' while you meditate)? ~ This is purely a rhetorical question to which I don't personally need a reply ...

A while back I bought the book 'Make Every Move a Meditation: Mindful Movement for Mental Health, Well-Being, and Insight
(Benefits of Exercise as Meditation)" by Nita Sweeney mistakenly thinking the focus would be about mindfulness meditation while going about daily tasks and some exercise, but the author is an ultra marathon runner (who took up running when she was 49 to alleviate depression) and so the focus of the book is very much on mindfulness meditation when running. (Since a child, I have always hated running and these days I am simply more than grateful to have gone from being bedridden to being able to walk around a mile... therefore much of the book was not specifically applicable to me, but I recently revisited it to re-read some passages that I had highlighted that were pertinent to me.) So, anyway, on a 'take it or leave it' basis, I just thought that I'd mention the book in case it might possibly be of some interest to the runners on these forums. Here's a flavour of/some excerpts from the book...

"On a bright Saturday morning, as I ran along the Olentangy Trail with three other members of our pace group, the conversation turned to meditation. It might as easily have turned to which central Ohio restaurant we would go to for breakfast, upcoming races, or last week’s Buckeye football game. Instead, a woman asked how I practice. “I do sitting meditation,” I said. “But I also meditate while I run. I was meditating just now.” “That’s a thing?” another woman asked. “It is for me.” I explained. “Today, I’m noticing my left foot. When my mind wanders, I gently bring it back.” “The whole run?” “Most of it.” “How long can you think about your foot? Isn’t that boring?” “I don’t think about my foot. I experience it. I notice the sensation of my foot hitting the ground and observe any changes. I pay attention to how my foot feels in my shoe. I sense if it hits harder than my right. When my mind wanders, I count my footfalls. When I pay close attention, it’s not boring at all.” Silence. Eventually, someone brought up breakfast.
But a few weeks later, the woman who initially asked approached me. “I tried your left foot meditation. It’s interesting. I rarely pay attention to my feet. Since I tried it, I feel more relaxed when I run.” She thanked me. That brief conversation led to this book. The woman, like many other people I’ve talked to, found the notion of movement meditation odd but also appealing. Movement meditation was worth exploring and explaining. Of course, I didn’t create movement meditation; centuries-old traditions embrace it. But for that woman, it was new. What I didn’t tell my sister runner was that this path of noticing—whether it be her left foot, her breath, or her thinking—is about much more than physical activity. Meditation might make her a better runner, or make someone else a better golfer, tennis player, dancer, gymnast, or weight lifter, but more importantly, consistent practice could lead her to insight—the kind that can enhance daily life. It might even free her from suffering, a pain she might not even know she has. If one person finds that, it will be worth any effort."
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"Know Thyself Performance coach Gary Mack, author of Mind Gym: An Athlete’s Guide to Inner Excellence, explains that each athlete is an individual. He urges his athletes to “know your numbers” for optimal performance and “recognize your early warning signs.” He explains: “Under stress, some people are cardiac responders—their heart rate goes up. Some are skin responders—they begin to perspire. Others begin to breathe rapidly, feel their stomachs lurch, or feel their neck and back muscles tensing. These are all physical early warning signs. Mentally, our minds start racing. A little voice begins whispering negative thoughts.” —Gary Mack. What better way to “know your numbers” and “recognize your early warning signs” than mindfulness? Once you begin to practice movement meditation regularly, you will become more familiar with the way you respond to stress. You will learn to back off when you experience your early warning signs and push when it is appropriate. You will feel it in your body and hear thoughts in your mind. You will know yourself and be able to adjust accordingly.
Stress and Recovery: The training pattern of most schedules for a long race includes several weeks of build-up followed by a “fall back” in which mileage is reduced. This fall back follows the principle of stress and recovery. Exercise stresses the muscles. Rest allows them to recover. During the recovery, muscles rebuild stronger than before. The corollary in meditation is regular practice interspersed with intense retreats. Take a similar approach to your movement meditation practice. At first, you may find it difficult to even remember to practice while you are exercising. Any day you practice is a good one. Challenge yourself to a longer session during a longer workout. Or register for a retreat. Let that strengthen your mind muscles. After, return to your workouts with heightened awareness and equanimity.
Summary: Enjoy any performance benefits, but focus on the process rather than the goal; this is easier said than done, but worth it. Here’s another riddle to ponder: "There is no path, and you’re on it." This moment is what counts.
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"My feet hurt: not both of them, and not the entire foot. Mostly just the bottom of my right foot, the one that bears more weight because of that congenital “wonky ankle” defect. I’d been running and walking for nine hours along the wooded tow path of the Ohio Erie Canal in northeastern Ohio, twenty-nine miles into Eagle Up, my first ultramarathon. My goal was thirty-one miles and change, a “50k.” It was hot. The leaves of lush deciduous trees hung heavy in the June humidity. That foot, swollen and sweat-soaked, throbbed. I knew from thousands of miles, a decade of experience, and prior consultations with trusted medical professionals that I was in no permanent danger. Despite the story my mind created—“You’re going to die, and even if you don’t, you won’t be able to walk when this is over”—I probably just had bruised toes. As I slowed, other runners and walkers passed. I wanted it to be over. I wanted to be done. I was close, but not done. I’d easily meditated during most of the race, completing each five-mile loop at my own pace, running solo except for one lovely loop shared with my friend, Deirdre.
At the beginning of the race, I had used a broad focus of awareness, allowing my mind to land on what it wanted and occasionally drilling awareness into any visual sensation that arose. Now, a very specific sensation called: the pain in my right foot. To distract myself, I sang “Amazing Grace.” I said my favorite lawyer joke out loud—a long one that has three parts. I tried to zone out. Nothing worked. That pulsing foot demanded all of my attention. Amid this struggle, a calm, quiet thought arose: “This is the only time you will ever be two miles from finishing your first ultramarathon. Be where you are. Let this be.” Tears mixed with sweat burned my eyes. To get out of the woods and back to the campground where the finish line beckoned, I had only one choice: Keep walking. I was not going to DNF (“did not finish”) this race when I was so close to being done. In response, my mind began to chant familiar refrains: “Who do you think you are? Why did you think you could do this? You’re going to die.” My throat closed. The green arch of trees that felt so welcoming earlier in the day seemed certain to swallow me. I stopped and shook my head to repel the thoughts as if they were flies. My heart pounded. Then, I remembered another Shinzen Young saying, “Escape into discomfort.” Time to change tactics. As I began to walk again, I turned my full attention to the bottom of that right foot, opening to the pain and letting the ache flood me. It felt solid, like a hard, heavy, burning brick. I could stay present with the pain for only a few seconds before I hit freak-out. I tensed and tried to point my mind toward anything else: the green trees, my sweaty body, those churning thoughts. But shifting the focus was useless. That pain demanded my full attention. Back into the sensations of that right foot I went.
I zoomed my focus closer into that sore foot and got curious. Gradually, the sensations began to shift. The solid block softened, turning to undulating goo. While still extremely unpleasant, it now moved and flowed. I let it expand and contract. And I kept moving too. Now that I’d committed to escaping into the discomfort, time began to flow as well. Eventually, the once endless trail opened to the street which led to the campground. Continuing to return my focus to that foot again and again, I circumnavigated the camp’s edge, completed the one-mile out-and-back required for the 50k course, and crossed the finish line. Yes, my foot still hurt. Everything hurt! But I was not suffering. The meditation had done its job."

 

Good question!

My answer is that I think I always meditate while I run - but only when I'm alone. I sometimes run with a group and I don't think I ever enter a meditative state with them because there's always conversation. But when it's just me there is some "moving meditation" going on always. I think I could be better at this though.

Great suggestion.

I find I have to be careful with books because I often buy books as a salve - I mean I end up reading them but they don't always score a hit - it's the act of buying which makes me think I'm doing something. One of my personal mantras is "buying is not doing' (lots of us buy things thinking it will fix a problem and we don't even use it).

This book description from you resonates with me though (I'm also a Ultrarunner) so I will likely take a swing on this on Kindle for just $10.

 

I requested it from my library. The other one, the Mind Gym book, looks like that's available as an e-book from my library so might give that one a shot too.

I just got done reading The Myth of Normal, Gabor Mate. Very interesting book.

 

As you know, I don't run, however, I do mindfulness meditation in daily life. I use a kind of 'pendulation' (for want of a better word) technique. I focus on my breathing (slow it down and lengthen my out breaths) or sometimes on a body part as a go about my day... my husband talks to me, I pay attention and respond... then I go back to my breathing again. Even the 'interruption' (of speaking with my husband or going to the front door and being handed a parcel by the postman or answering my phone or whatever) can be done mindfully with paying attention to and concentrating on what I'm doing, what they're saying etc. I'm far from perfect at it, but it's made a big difference to my life, brought me some peace.

So true! It can be a distraction. What I now usually do is leave it at least 2 days before I consider buying books and other stuff (to include non-TMS related items). Often after 2 days I've changed my mind and I don't purchase.

Something else I've taken to doing in recent times before I buy a mind/body book is to ask perplexity.ai what practical advice the book contains and/or what the main message of the book is etc, and it usually comes up with quite detailed replies and that often gets me changing my mind about purchasing.

I think that's true of me as well. (Also, I have often read a mind/body book, begun doing the things recommended therein and do them for a while, and then my resolve fizzles out and I don't continue with it.) I have mixed feelings about it though because I have often gained a little 'nugget' from a mind/body book that sticks with me and, although I may have heard a suggestion or read about a certain way of viewing things sometimes many times before, an author might express something in slightly different way and 'bingo' it cuts to the core and resonates with me.

 

Oh man BloodMoon, you are nailing it with that. Lots of things to comment on:

This is very similar to the technique I have developed to help me sleep. (I had some serious insomnia issues back when I was dealing with my hip surgery etc) I do the same thing, slow down my breathing, focus only on my breathing, and if my mind wanders I mentally say "that's okay, let's get back to focus" and rinse and repeat. As you can tell this is a basic meditation technique but for me it allows me to drift off to sleep. In fact, I've gotten so proficient at it that I usually notice the first triggers of sleep coming while I'm practicing this (I used to always marvel how I could never tell when I fell asleep - I still can't but I can see that first step of drifting off). Incidentally this also works the same if you wake up in the middle of the night. And also incidentally, this all came about as a result of discovering TMS and everything that entailed.

Great suggestion on delaying the purchase. I bet you notice the same thing I do in those situations in that you often forget all about it, in that case it wasn't that important.

I had never heard of perplexity.ai but that's something I had never thought to do - basically get the "cliff's notes" for the book before. I'm sure all the AI services (Grok, ChatGPT, etc) have similar functions.

Yes to this. Almost always this is the case. I think subconsciously I expect just the fact I have read the book for it to take hold and make some kind of difference - which is almost never the case. Ironically, the only time that has happened that I can recall right now is reading the Sarno books for the first time.