Alan Gordon June 9 Drop-In Chat with Alan Gordon, LCSW

I'm sorry to hear that, but really glad to hear that you got some good tips. Alan works with another therapist named Derek Sapico, whom he's said he trusts completely. I know that Derek is pretty extraordinarily busy as well, but if you're lucky, maybe he'll have an opening. I suspect that he uses a similar approach. I know that they talk a lot, and I'm really hoping to get Derek to come on the forum at some point.

 

Hello, everyone....

Unlike previous events, we announced throughout our recent Drop-In Chat with Alan Gordon that the event would be recorded. I'm really glad that we did because, as one participant wrote, "this would be a good sticky on the forum id listen to this over and over again." I think that's a great idea and may end up doing so myself, but I want to make sure that the rest of you can as well!

Processing the audio has taken most of the day, believe it or not, and I need to run off to see a friend (we're going to watch In Treatment - very excited!), but I thought I'd upload the current draft before I did.

If anyone has any questions of thoughts about the ideas covered, please feel free to ask them here. We can put our heads together, see if we can answer them, and, if we can't, perhaps Alan will weigh in.

Many thanks to everyone who participated and made it such a great event!

F

The audio and the chat log follow. Things start to get interesting about 3 minutes and 23 seconds in.

Click here to view this on Vimeo

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Preliminary Chat log:
16:55:05 guest250 this is great stuff
16:55:06 VM mine..
16:55:11 VM I guess it pretty specific..
16:55:20 VM not concern many people..
16:55:47 Becca VM can you re-type it? for some reason I cant see it
16:55:54 Danielle Has he ever worked with fibromyalgia-type stuff? It seems like the defense mechanisms are so strong that it is hard to break the cycle. (I know you had this Forest, right?)
16:56:01 Forest2 Jody's picture: http://www.tmswiki.org/ppd/File:Photo.JPG
16:56:22 VM Forest2, its the temparture
16:56:45 VM i have more symtoms at colder temparutes...is that just conditioning ?
16:57:30 JanA, Moderator VM - I remember, but it disappeared off our screens
16:57:33 MorComm VM, Schubiner talks about weather as a trigger for TMS pain.
16:57:35 VM i need to protect my leg warmly...
16:57:42 JanA, Moderator Although you're right, it might be a too specific on your personal symptoms
16:59:17 JanA, Moderator At my lowest point (before discovering Sarno) my symptoms got worse in the shower
16:59:29 guest250 yeah thanks alan and forest this was great
16:59:31 JanA, Moderator VM, was that a good answer from Alan?
16:59:37 AneskyHave to go. Thanks again!
16:59:50 Becca thanks for dropping in
17:00:00 Debra Will he do it again?
17:00:07 JanA, Moderator Bye Anesky!
17:00:28 VM JanA, Moderator, Yes, thanks for asking it.
17:00:46 guest250 yeah is alan going to be doing anything like this again? would be great
17:00:58 ginger thanks to Alan for his time...and no I have no relationship with Alan....LoL
17:01:07 Danielle lol
17:01:34 JanA, Moderator VM, Thank Forest for picking it up - I don't know how he does it
17:01:36 guest250 alan you're awesome
17:01:37 guest13 This was great ! THANKS to Alan.
17:01:51 Danielle ditto
17:01:53 guest13 and thanks, Forest for posting onto the TMS Discussion board about this.
17:02:04 JanA, Moderator You can go ahead and type your thanks in the Fuze box, although I'm not entirely sure he logged in
17:02:18 JanA, Moderator Lower left screen "Meeting Chat"
17:02:22 Debra Thank you, Alan! You're great.
17:02:42 JanA, Moderator In case you're not hearing the audio, the entire meeting was recorded and will be posted on the wiki and the forum
17:02:45 guest250 was the first part recorded too?
17:02:50 guest250 the part i missed the first hour
17:02:53 MorComm Yes, thanks Alan and Forest (for setting this up). I could transpose what I heard to my own situation indirectly. Great event!
17:03:00 guest250 great
17:03:05 ginger ...
17:03:05 JanA, Moderator Yes, it was recorded shortly after Alan arrived
17:03:10 Debra Great event, Forest.
17:03:31 JanA, Moderator We couldn't do this without Forest!
17:03:35 ginger oh great everyone will hrar this southern lady crying...lol
17:03:56 guest250 this would be a good sticky on the forum id listen to this over and over again
17:04:06 JanA, Moderator LOL - but your session was great, Ginger - really helpful for many of us
17:04:07 Becca good idea, guest250
17:04:30 ginger sorry, typos...one finger tping with phone in other hand
17:05:08 ginger thank ya Jan
17:05:15 JanA, Moderator 250, Forest will definitely make sure it's posted prominently
17:05:25 guest250 sounds great
17:05:52 JanA, Moderator I invested in a headset with mike several years ago. Hardly ever use it, but those few times have been great
17:06:17 Forest2 Heya, Ginger, are you still there?
17:06:56 Forest2 That was really wonderful!
17:07:05 guest897 guest897 changes nickname to MorComm
17:07:15 Debra The audio was such an important aspect of it.
17:07:31 Forest2 As I was thinking about who we would want to invite, I thought that Alan would be terrific because not only does he get it, but he has something to say.
17:07:52 JanA, Moderator He was incredible
17:07:52 yb44 Must go
17:08:03 Forest2 Bye, YB44, thanks for joining!
17:08:04 JanA, Moderator By YB! Hope we can chat in the future
17:08:06 yb44 Thanks to everyone. This was great.
17:08:12 guest250 ive paid for webinar sessions like this and they weren't even close to as good
17:08:26 Melanie Forest, where will we find the session recorded?
17:08:49 JanA, Moderator 250,
17:08:58 Forest2 Keep watching the wiki and the wiki's forum. It will be announced there.
17:09:02 JanA, Moderator LOL, give the guy a chance!
17:09:16 Forest2 Here's the link: http://tmswiki.org/forum/forums/general-ppd-tms-discussion-forum.2/
17:09:28 JanA, Moderator All "guests" if you want to stay and chat, it would be great to have screen names instead of numbers
17:09:28 Melanie Lol, it was so good, I'd love to hear the whole thing, only caught the last half.
17:09:39 JanA, Moderator left-click on your guest# name to the left of the text box
17:09:49 Melanie thanks Forest
17:10:30 Becca to clarify, "left-click" is the normal one (so if you have a mac, just click!)
17:10:36 JanA, Moderator Forest, absolutely fantastic job setting it up and coordinating. I STILL don't know how you do it
17:10:42 guest250 guest250 changes nickname to Tommy
17:10:49 JanA, Moderator Becca - heh, thanks!
17:10:57 JanA, Moderator Tommy! Hi!
17:10:57 Forest2 You were invaluable, Jan, as was Becca!
17:11:17 JanA, Moderator teamwork
17:11:19 Tommy i thought it was really interesting how he said the pain was a means to an end.. and that the worry, obsessing, anxiety about it is the real problem
17:11:22 Forest2 Indeed.
17:11:23 Tommy didnt think about it that way before
17:11:23 Becca absolutely
17:11:32 MorComm JanA, Moderator, You could really see in Alan's interactions with Annie and Ginger how the psychodynamics of TMS are the same, even though individual situations differ. Same basic building blocks. Alan's obviously got a wealth of experience dealing with TMS patients.
17:11:42 Forest2 It's a great point, Tommy.
17:11:59 JanA, Moderator MorComm, I really got that, too - it was fascinating
17:12:19 JanA, Moderator I was thinking of a question I had, but realized he really answered it with Annie
17:12:20 Melanie I never really thought of Rage as being awesome. He has interesting way of looking at stuff.
17:12:35 MorComm JanA, Moderator, Alan can get right down to essentials because he's seen it so many times before. Must be excellent to be his patient.
17:12:47 Becca Melanie, agreed!
17:12:54 Debra Where is he located?
17:13:00 Forest2 Alan occasionally tells me that I'm good at answering forum posts and that I might make a good therapist, but I tell you, I listen to how skillful he is and how he sees so many things that I don't, and I'm just awestruck. I don't think I could ever have quite that talent.
17:13:07 JanA, Moderator MorComm, something to consider...
17:13:30 MorComm JanA, Moderator, What?
17:13:35 JanA, Moderator It's an amazing skill
17:13:40 Forest2 In terms of that, Shanshu Vampyr is his client
17:13:43 Melanie So interesting that he heard the sadness in Ginger's voice.
17:14:03 JanA, Moderator MorComm, I was thinking, he does Skype sessions - I've barely had therapy in my life...
17:14:08 Forest2 If you read his thread on the forum, it's great to see the before and after. I think that Alan taught him some terrific skills.
17:14:14 JanA, Moderator Hi 608 - would you like to change to a screen name?
17:14:28 Forest2 Melanie, that's what I was thinking about. It's amazing what he can see.
17:14:35 Forest2 or hear, rather.
17:15:16 JanA, Moderator My #1 takeaway - stop thinking and start feeling.
17:15:16 Melanie Sounds like "crying" is good, we were always told we were "cry babies" - go figure!
17:15:27 JanA, Moderator Or #1 until I listen to it again
17:15:32 Melanie Nice way to sum it up JanA
17:16:13 JanA, Moderator Melanie, in our house it was "stop crying or I'll give you something to cry about"
17:16:14 JanA, Moderator eesh
17:16:22 MorComm Melanie, while listening to Alan talk to Ginger, I remember a dream I had as a child where I'd turn into a monster while riding the school bus and go out and crush the suburbs like Godzilla. Realized it was my rage against my battling parents. Alan sure did help me remember it! That angry chimpanzee attacking a guest. It's there in all of us.
17:16:45 Melanie wow JanA, sounds like same situation.
17:17:23 JanA, Moderator Melanie, a very common denominator! As is so much of this experience
17:17:46 ginger ..
17:17:57 Melanie Geeze. I started crying with Ginger and can't seem to stop.
17:18:22 JanA, Moderator Feel it!
17:18:32 ginger hugs to ya melanie
17:18:46 Melanie thanks JanA and Ginger!
17:18:58 JanA, Moderator >O<
17:19:04 Tommy the time i cry is usually if i have really bad days and then right before bed
17:19:06 Tommy i just breakdown
17:19:10 Tommy out of nowhere
17:19:20 JanA, Moderator Nights are often the hardest
17:19:32 JanA, Moderator It's when our fears surface after a day of coping
17:19:35 JanA, Moderator My theory
17:19:37 Tommy yeah i agree
17:19:48 Tommy ill be laying there and then i'll be thinking about the pain or whatever
17:19:54 Tommy and just start crying myabe because im so sick of it
17:20:08 JanA, Moderator Can you get in touch with the feelings instead of the physical pain?
17:20:11 ginger I'm gonna have to get in touch with Alan
17:20:15 JanA, Moderator What Alan was saying
17:20:17 Melanie Tommy, how long you have TMS?
17:20:24 JanA, Moderator ginger, I was thinking the same thing
17:20:24 Tommy thats what im trying to do now
17:20:40 MorComm Tommy, try experiencing the sadness using one of the exercises in Schubiner's Unlearn Your Pain. You'll experience it in its pure original form instead as a substitute during your regular daily activities. Very instructive.
17:20:42 Tommy ive probably had TMS for many years but didn't start learning about it until a couple months ago
17:20:45 guest389 Yes, My take away is stop trying to problem solve, trying to figure it out, and just let yourself feeeeeeel!!! Such a simple concept but so foreign when you're not used to doing it! I guess it just takes practice and practice (and being kind to yourself in the process) : )
17:20:51 Tommy you usually have to go through all the physical treatments before you end up at this path
17:21:01 guest286 guest286 changes nickname to Annie
17:21:04 Forest2 Tommy, that's what I did!
17:21:30 Tommy yeah i think thats a common thing for most of the people here. then you start learning about TMS and you realize you've probably had it your whole life
17:21:35 JanA, Moderator Hi Annie! I was wondering where yfou were!
17:21:37 Tommy it just started happening when something triggered it
17:21:42 ginger as I was crying I could physically feel my chest area opening up
17:21:44 Forest2 I tried everything. Some people accept the diagnosis easily; most don't, but I definitely did.
17:21:44 JanA, Moderator Good job today, girl!
17:22:00 Annie Hi all - thank you for listening to my story
17:22:02 JanA, Moderator Lot of stuff coming up for everyone after that sesson
17:22:12 MorComm ginger, that's called the Heart Chakra in Yoga.
17:22:20 Forest2 Thanks a lot for sharing it, Annie.
17:22:23 Tommy i think thats it forest when you're tried everything, theres nothing left to do, and thats what really lets you accept the diagnosis. if theres that one thing left you haven't tried you're still going to have that doubt in your mind i think
17:22:25 Tommy maybe im wrong
17:22:57 Forest2 That was definitely the story for me. Others are more open to it, but that was my story.
17:23:03 Annie Well I know I have "rage issues" now that I haven't addressed.
17:23:04 MorComm Tommy, first you exhaust all the structural diagnoses, then you hit on the real answer.
17:23:16 Forest2 So do people see this session as changing the way that they manage their own TMS?
17:23:18 Melanie anyone know Dr. Timothy Freitas in PA who deals with Somatic Issues?
17:23:26 Tommy yeah exactly. it really sucks you have to go through all of the physical stuff but if you dont
17:23:27 ginger well, seems I;ve tried eveything in the tms arena..but got a aha moment today
17:23:29 Tommy theres going to be that doubt there
17:23:34 Forest2 What changes do you think will be most helpful?
17:23:42 Annie You did great Ginger
17:24:14 Forest2 Yes, thank you for sharing.
17:24:23 Tommy i agree with Jan overthinking is something I do way too much
17:24:41 Tommy i dont feel the feelings.. just go back and forth doubting and questioning how come pain is worse today? what did i do differently.. blah blah
17:24:44 ginger thanks annie...and you were the one that asked the question that was the aha moment
17:24:51 Tommy and i just keep pushing back feeling and overthink instead
17:25:33 Melanie hard to get in touch with feelings after soooo many year of repressing
17:25:47 MorComm Forest2, Alan's point about TMS being caused by the obsessive preoccupation with the pain instead of the pain itself seems crucial to figuring it out and eliminating the problem.
17:25:53 Annie Really? Cool for you Ginger - I too learned a lot
17:25:59 Tommy totally agree morcomm
17:26:17 Tommy its the obsessive preoccupation that perpetuates it you have to break that link otherwise it will keep going
17:26:20 ginger I seem to go along with Dr. Shub. though, that some situations about my life do need to change
17:26:36 Tommy but the pain is such a good preoccupation which makes it so difficult
17:26:55 Annie I agree Tommy
17:27:25 MorComm Tommy, yes, i notice myself getting up in the morning pain-free and then waiting waiting waiting for IT to start. It's that obsessive expectation and fear that have to be eliminated.
17:27:48 ginger ..
17:28:17 Melanie MorComm, I am left with only pain now when I sit, so everytime I am going to sit down, it's almost like "wait for it" so crazy
17:28:38 ginger I imagine Alan is gonna get really booked up about now with new long distant clients
17:28:54 Tommy forest made a really good comment on the forum the other day. when you're in pain all you can do is think about it. when you're not in pain all you can do is think about when it will come back
17:29:07 Tommy in both situations its the worrying and obsession that seems to be the driving force
17:29:36 MorComm Melanie, there's certain perverse enjoyment too in noticing that first tinge of pain in the sciatic nerve or shoulder. It completes the neurotic loop!
17:29:48 Tommy if you fear it coming back it most likely will
17:30:08 MorComm Tommy, exactly.
17:30:27 Melanie hmmm perverse enjoyment, almost like "aha I knew it would be there" interesting
17:31:01 JanA, Moderator Well, Alan did mention allowing ourselves to be bullied
17:31:10 JanA, Moderator perverse, or allowing it to happen
17:31:12 JanA, Moderator take your pick
17:31:12 Melanie Very odd, my daughter got married last Saturday and absolutely no pain all day
17:31:50 Melanie could the happiness of the day have fought away the pain
17:31:51 JanA, Moderator Now, why is that odd, do you think?
17:32:29 Melanie well some pain every other day when sitting
17:32:33 ginger but how to stop the bullying is my question...it seems if that doesnt stop...the symtoms won't
17:32:41 MorComm Melanie, well, you must have been totally absorbed in the moment, enjoying yourself too?
17:33:03 JanA, Moderator MorComm, re Melanie - that's what I think!
17:33:23 ginger yes, a distraction from the pain
17:33:29 Melanie true, maybe the bullying "tape" wasn't playing that day
17:33:38 JanA, Moderator We all have moments when we're distracted by things we really enjoy
17:33:44 MorComm ginger, I guess you have to confront the Enemy Within and not let it rule you.
17:33:56 JanA, Moderator distracted in a good way, that is! Not by TMS, LOL
17:34:01 Annie And I guess I have one too.
17:34:22 Annie bully that is - great word for it too.
17:34:27 Melanie and how do you find the enemy within"
17:35:00 MorComm Annie, from this chat session, I'd say that's a common denominator: the internal bully that you've given power over you.
17:35:11 ginger yes, it seems to go back to c.b.t. therapy...what you keep telling yourself
17:35:28 JanA, Moderator Ah yes - that's my #2 takeaway - the concept of the internal bully. Really on point for me
17:36:23 MorComm JanA, Moderator, except the bully developed when you were in the hynogogic phase of your internal development, back before you were 6 y.o. Different territory than the adult mind.
17:36:33 Melanie After the wedding, my husband started with "should have talked to everyone more" etc. and I told him to just relax and enjoy the moment. Amazing he doesn't have TMS and I do
17:36:37 guest872 guest872 changes nickname to Annie
17:37:36 Tommy melanie do you find yourself comparing other people wondering why they dont have TMS and you do? i do this exact same thing im like "this guy is a prime candidate for TMS but he doesn't have it.. why?"
17:37:37 JanA, Moderator Melanie, are you sure he doesn't?
17:37:40 Tommy i think thats probably the overthinking
17:37:55 Melanie OMG Tommy, def
17:38:10 ginger ditto
17:38:24 Tommy that creates more fear for me i dont know if it does for you too. its almost a jealousy because they can do the same things you're doing but not have the pain
17:38:49 Melanie JanA, I'm the one with the pain, he's in great shape and exercises an hour everyday, but he's always with the should've stuff, like not good enough.
17:38:56 JanA, Moderator And I ask again - how do you know someone doesn't have TMS?
17:39:13 JanA, Moderator TMS equivalents come in many many forms
17:39:20 ginger true....for me it goes back to over thinkng and trying to figure everything out so I can get it all RIGHT
17:39:23 JanA, Moderator small symptoms that people can ignore for years
17:39:34 MorComm Tommy, but as Sarno points out, they usually have "something else" psychogenic besides TMS pain. TMS substitutes.
17:39:34 JanA, Moderator Or that aren't obvious to others, and easy to cover up
17:39:49 Melanie he does have a little ringing in his one ear, maybe TMS
17:39:59 Tommy tinnitus?
17:40:06 Annie Giinger - this (IMO) is a different journey for us all, with some over-lap between some people's "stuff"
17:40:08 Melanie Bingo Tommy
17:40:28 Tommy that is possibly TMS ive read about that in TMS books
17:40:34 JanA, Moderator tinnitus, so-called food sensitivies, allergies, headaches, little twitches or spams
17:40:49 JanA, Moderator spasm, that is
17:40:53 Melanie OMG JanA, I have all that LOL
17:41:01 JanA, Moderator occassional numbness or tingling
17:41:11 Tommy i guess its wrong to assume that other people dont have TMS as well i guess since they say they dont have pain doesn't mean they dont have TMS since there are so many substitutes with mind body disorder
17:41:12 Melanie even the tremors
17:41:13 JanA, Moderator OMG I never have been able to spell that word
17:41:36 JanA, Moderator yes, tremors, shakiness
17:41:39 JanA, Moderator dry mouth
17:41:43 JanA, Moderator I could go on
17:41:56 Melanie JanA, you have all that?
17:42:01 MorComm JanA, Moderator, yes, I remember developing a nervous tick in my right eye in elementary school right at the time before my parents tried to get a divorce. Tension must have been building. Lots of fist fights too.
17:42:02 JanA, Moderator I've had most of them over the years
17:42:06 ginger yes, we all coming at this with different situations that set us up, I do believe
17:42:20 Tommy right ginger
17:42:44 Annie but having things like this forum - REALLY help. I think anyway.
17:42:55 ginger oh by the way, a pet peve of mine is, I have been told all of my life that I sound terrible when I talk
17:43:08 Melanie MorComm, I still get tick in my right eye, my eye Dr. even pointed it out the last time I was there.
17:43:13 ginger I took speech as a child for over 10 years
17:43:13 Annie You sounded great.
17:43:23 JanA, Moderator Ginger, you sounded lovely!
17:43:24 Melanie ginger, you have a lovely voice
17:43:33 JanA, Moderator You have a wonderful voice, what are they talking about?
17:43:43 MorComm ginger, Yes, what's the big deal? You sounded fine to me.
17:43:44 JanA, Moderator Of course, I think that I sound terrible
17:43:53 ginger oh my, I'm going to cry again
17:43:57 JanA, Moderator oops - self-bullying
17:44:11 ginger yes, I was born deaf
17:44:41 JanA, Moderator And Alan would ask you to feel the sadness, get in touch with what makes you sad when you are complimented, or are told those others are full of you-know what
17:44:46 Melanie Ginger, do you feel like you can cry anytime during the day or evening? I notice I feel like that much of the time now
17:44:48 Annie Wow Ginger - you'd never know that. You sound great.
17:45:20 ginger had surgery to receive the first artifical eardrums ever..and then had a lot of speech therapy, so I am very self consious
17:45:50 Annie well - there are several things to explore in that last sentence Ginger...
17:45:50 JanA, Moderator You've got to be kidding! You were crystal-clear and sounded great
17:45:59 Becca thanks everyone for participating in this special event and for sharing your stories! take care, Becca
17:46:10 JanA, Moderator And everyone loves that Texas accent (I loved visiting Houston once - I wanted to talk like that)
17:46:12 Annie thank YOU becca
17:46:13 Tommy ginger you sounded completely fine who cares what these other people think dont be self conscious about it
17:46:22 MorComm Becca, So long, Becca. Glad you dropped by.
17:46:25 JanA, Moderator Hey Becca - it was great to be on the team with you
17:46:32 JanA, Moderator Thanks for everything
17:47:33 ginger I really didn't know I had a texas accent.....since I had so much therapy but well, I'm getting on up there in age now, so I just pick it up
17:47:41 Melanie Ginger, I have a bald spot from brain surgery and am totally self-conscious about it although my hair covers it just fine. Seems like we are all hard on ourselves.
17:48:16 Forest2 Indeed.
17:48:22 JanA, Moderator So Melanie, about the tendency to cry - how does that relate to what Alan was doing today, about getting in touch with the feelings?
17:48:29 ginger oh I hardly ever talk on the phone, it seems I'm told I sound worse on it
17:49:24 Forest2 I thought you sound great.
17:49:31 ginger Mel" I can understand...I too have a large area on my head from shaving for the ear surgery, but, never thought about it showing
17:49:37 guest613 guest613 changes nickname to Annie
17:49:37 Forest2 (I'm back by the way.)
17:49:41 Melanie JanA, very good question. Went to a TMS psychotherapist 7 times and cried everytime. She told me it's time to work on forgiveness.
17:50:08 JanA, Moderator ginger, my ex has one friend who complains every time they talk by cell phone - we've decided it's that guy's problem.
17:50:21 ginger haha
17:50:27 Forest2 Sounds like sage advice, though probably harder than it sounds.
17:51:02 ginger I don't ever use my cell...just have it for emergency if power goes out and need to call someone
17:51:21 Melanie on your ranch Ginger, lol
17:51:29 ginger lol
17:51:42 VM cya everyone!
17:51:50 ginger I do live in the country though....was raised a city girl
17:51:55 JanA, Moderator Bye VM - thanks for joining!
17:52:02 Forest2 Bye, VM, thanks for joining us. See your around the forum.
17:52:14 MorComm ginger, I have an iPhone 4s. It's taken over and rules my life through the web and the newspapers. Try to keep it turned off!
17:52:32 MorComm VM, So long!
17:52:37 Melanie You sound like a lovely lady Ginger and you have a very nice voice
17:52:41 JanA, Moderator MorComm, LOL!
17:52:56 Forest2 I was just on the phone with Alan. He said that he had a great time.
17:52:58 ginger seems most are like that Comm
17:53:05 JanA, Moderator MorComm, I put off getting a smartphone for a long time because I thought it would be bad for my neck.
17:53:12 Forest2 I like that he likes his work.
17:53:20 JanA, Moderator Now I'm addicted, and my neck doesn't hurt at all
17:53:21 ginger thank ya', thank ya' all
17:53:35 Forest2 Ginger, before you go, could I get your email address?
17:53:37 JanA, Moderator Forest2,
17:53:43 MorComm ginger, Too much bad crime news. Seems like child molesters are everywhere. Insta-world. Insta-anxiety.
17:54:37 ginger forest: let me just say, I'm back too...you do know me...that southern belle comment, fit me
17:55:00 Forest2 Wait, are you SB?!!!
17:55:07 Forest2 I will be so happy if you are.
17:55:13 ginger SG
17:55:19 Forest2 WOW.
17:55:26 Forest2 Nuff said.
17:55:33 ginger is that who u thought?
17:55:39 Forest2 Yep.
17:55:52 ginger now u know how I sound
17:56:03 Forest2 Like a southern belle!
17:56:15 ginger haha...like a dang texan
17:56:16 Forest2 I'm glad you had a good experience.
17:56:33 Forest2 What's wrong with Texas?!
17:56:48 ginger yes, I've been away for a while now...had to get more medical attention
17:57:18 Forest2 We should chat at some point. Can I give you a call?
17:57:33 ginger for sure....I'd love that
17:57:34 Melanie Alan talked about the book "of Two Minds", anyone read it?
17:57:55 Forest2 Okay, at the top of the window, a new tab will pop up with my name on it.
17:58:11 Forest2 Do you see it?
17:58:33 Forest2 It's right above the top line of text in the chat room.
17:58:40 JanA, Moderator Melanie, nope - and googling it seems to get me to a Lifetime movie
17:58:45 Forest2 LOL
17:58:54 JanA, Moderator Hi 88 - or that Annie still trying to stay logged in?
17:58:55 Melanie LOL
17:59:21 Melanie I think he said the author is Frederick Schiffer
17:59:41 guest88 guest88 changes nickname to annie
17:59:57 annie man I keep getting booted!
18:00:07 JanA, Moderator Annie - why can't you stay logged in? I've never seen anyone booted off so much
18:00:14 JanA, Moderator I should be asking Forest
18:00:36 JanA, Moderator Melanie, you're right - and Google corrected the spelling to Frederic - Dual-Brain Psychology
18:00:43 annie switched computers...we'll see.
18:00:43 JanA, Moderator reminds me of The Divided Mind
18:01:11 MorComm annie, Stat multiplexers on the web still have buffers that are flushed out periodically. The web is still primitive in some parts. Your name could be getting flushed out and a time out follows. Just my two bits
18:01:27 Melanie Hard to know what to read, so many books on the subject
18:02:15 JanA, Moderator And I just heard about another one yesterday - The Great Pain Deception. Forest, was it you who recommended that one?
18:02:49 Forest2 Great Pain Deception is a good one...
18:02:54 Forest2 Yup
18:02:55 annie Just got it!
18:03:10 annie I am looking forward to getting into it.
18:03:16 Melanie It would be great if there was a book that would tell us 1. how to find the feelings we need to feel and then 2. how to tap into rage when we don't know it's there and can't feel it
18:03:34 Forest2 Yay!
18:03:36 MorComm JanA, Moderator, Yes, what Alan said about severing the left and right lobes of the brain to stop epilepsy was really, really interesting. Dual intentionalities working at cross-purposes. Wow!
18:03:38 annie agreed Melanie'
18:03:41 Melanie who wrote that Forest2?
18:03:52 Forest2 Steve Ray Ozanich
18:04:56 Forest2 He's just a patient, like you and I.
18:05:08 JanA, Moderator It's less than $25 on Amazon, so I also ordered Neil Fiore's book on procrastination, which I've been meaning to get for a long time and that's not a joke
18:05:14 JanA, Moderator But it should be
18:05:18 annie I seem to relate to those writers well'
18:05:29 Forest2 I think that us patients have a deeper and more textured understanding of TMS, because we have been through it.
18:05:35 annie maybe Ginger would benefit?
18:05:38 Melanie LOL JanA
18:05:45 Forest2 The downside is that peer written books are, of course, much less scientific.
18:06:12 annie but sometimess easier to read.
18:06:22 Forest2 If you want something to help you access feelings, I think that the second edition of Schubiner's book is quite good.
18:06:24 Forest2 Indeed!
18:06:46 Melanie Schubiner's workbook?
18:06:48 JanA, Moderator hi 822
18:06:54 Forest2 Yep.
18:06:59 annie yes. I am interested in Dr. S's new book too. But I can't overload
18:07:16 Melanie Yes, very good Forest2, I have it, read it and did the workbook
18:07:17 Forest2 Morcomm, you find that that book helps you dig deep, right?
18:07:23 annie I did that before and had a TMS crash
18:07:46 Forest2 Sometimes we aren't ready The more there is to dig up the harder is the digging.
18:08:04 annie agreed forest 2
18:08:13 Forest2
18:08:31 MorComm Forest2, Yes. It is a real "workbook" though. Lots and lots of work. But it does help you get inside very deep. Just have to be persistent. 28 days! sure! 3 months is more like it at least.
18:08:34 Melanie Seems everyone feels TMS is always from something in our early childhood
18:09:07 Melanie MorComm, I did it in 28 days, sometimes 3 or 4 hours a day, lots of work
18:09:19 annie Morcomm: would you suggest doing the work book again? I never finished.
18:09:19 MorComm Melanie, from childhood perhaps. but it persists and takes place very much in the present moment.
18:09:20 JanA, Moderator Melanie - I know, and that's a concept that's hard for me, but I think it's valid
18:10:00 JanA, Moderator I remember reading about a case study where the patient's reaction to a current stress (job) was related to early family dynamics that played out in the workplace under a particular boss
18:10:04 MorComm annie, i'm up to the part about writing letters, about half way through, with much more to do. just have to return to it again and again.
18:10:06 Forest2 There's an interesting story behind it. Dr. Schubiner had written his book and wasn't planning on redoing it. But then he discovered Alan Abbass, another very successful scholar like himself. Allan Abbass lead him to ISTDP and it really changed his approach. We had him on for the Peer Supervision meeting for psychotherapists and you could just hear the excitement in his voice about his new discoveries. I think that discovering Abbass and ISTDP was a turning point for him.
18:10:37 Melanie seems maybe even accumulative, like perhaps childhood stuff can stay stuffed, until something in young life adds to it and then maybe something in 40's or 50's pushes it over the top
18:10:38 guest535 I spent a week with Dr S at Kripalu
18:10:51 JanA, Moderator Melanie, exactly
18:10:51 Forest2 Unfortunately, Abbass doesn't have any books for peers; they are all written for practitioners. I think that Alan Gordon and Howard Schubiner may be breaking new ground in translating it into something for the public.
18:12:06 annie Thanks MorComm - may try it again, or pick up where I left off.
18:12:10 MorComm Melanie, exactly. repressive patterns worked fine for me. that is, until the death of my mom in 2001 broke the structure i was maintaining and feeding. that's when the TMS pain began for me.
18:12:16 JanA, Moderator guest535, how was that?
18:12:36 Melanie I talked to Dr. Schubiner on the phone and he suggested I try ISTDP and if that didn't work, come to his Sept. Meeting in Mass
18:12:51 guest535 It was very rewarding though early in his research, 2 1/2 years ago
18:13:26 Melanie Guest 535, was it for a full week?
18:13:38 MorComm Melanie, ISTDP seems like a very powerful technique. When I practiced it in Schubiner's work book things started to happen for me.
18:13:39 Forest2 By the way, I just want to remind people that this conversation will be publicly archived, so choose a good pseudonym! If you want me to change your pseudonym, just let me know. You can email me at forest@tmswiki.org or contact me through the forum. If you want to be super sure that it gets through, you can mention it here. Finally, I'm expecting another call, so I may step away from the computer again.
18:13:43 JanA, Moderator Melanie, is that at Kripalu?
18:13:56 guest535 I did ISTDP because Dr S suggested it, 14 essions so far but have to quit due to finances
18:14:13 Forest2 I'd love to go to the next Kripalu event. It sounds really good.
18:14:18 Melanie Yes JanA, Kripalu - never heard of it before
18:14:49 guest535 Five days at Kripau
18:14:55 JanA, Moderator 535, did you have any luck using Dr. Schu's workbook?
18:15:00 MorComm guest535, well, you can do ISTDP in Schubiner's workbook too by yourself. But that's what I mean by a lot of work.
18:15:23 Forest2 http://kripalu.org/presenter/V0005065/howard_schubiner
18:15:32 annie Is it in the workbook? I don't really know what it is.
18:15:38 Melanie MorComm, did you try that and did you get anything from it?
18:15:46 annie that was to MorComm
18:15:57 JanA, Moderator Having TMS is a lot of work, LOL!
18:16:04 Forest2 Amen!
18:16:24 guest535 His class is about doing the workbook, I got through most of it but when I got home, I got lazy. It is tough doing it alone
18:16:27 MorComm Melanie, ISTDP in Schubiner's Unlearn Your Pain? Yes, indeed, I did get a lot out of it. Not easy though.
18:16:29 annie man - ya think/? I'm grateful I know what it is now thought
18:16:57 JanA, Moderator guest535, I hear you. Been there.
18:17:19 annie bad typing. (me)
18:17:35 JanA, Moderator Folks, I have got to go -
18:17:41 JanA, Moderator It's been a really incredible afternoon
18:17:54 JanA, Moderator I think I'm in love with Alan
18:17:54 Melanie MorComm, I tried it myself and didn't get much out of it. I'm calling a ISTDP therapist on Monday to make an appointment. Says he specializes in ISTDP. I hope he's good.
18:17:58 annie Thank you all (again) for listening to my long story. I was honored to be chosen - hope someone learned something besides me
18:17:59 MorComm JanA, Moderator, Okay. Thanks very much for moderating. You did a great job.
18:18:02 Forest2 Thanks so much for moderating, Jan. You have a gift for being a facilitator.
18:18:33 guest535 Thanks, great job....
18:18:35 Melanie thanks much JanA.
18:18:39 Forest2 Oh, we definitely did, Annie. Thanks for having the courage to share.
18:18:55 JanA, Moderator Thanks, everyone I'll see y'all on the forum, I hope
18:18:56 MorComm Melanie, Yes. Having a guide would be immensely useful while doing ISTDP exercises. A sounding board if you will.
18:19:09 JanA, Moderator JanA, Moderator quit
18:19:13 Melanie Yeah and I'm thinking maybe a guide.
18:19:20 annie thanks Forest
18:19:23 Forest2 Melanie, glad to hear it. I hope to do the same. There aren't any ISTDP therapists in my neck of the woods, but I'm going to try someone with a similar approach.
18:19:33 JanA, Moderator JanA, Moderator quit
18:19:49 MorComm Melanie, Well, that's what Sigismund Freud thought too! He founding a movement, remember?
18:20:02 Melanie My husband keeps saying "we will never surrender"
18:20:08 Forest2 Heh.
18:20:10 Forest2 LOL
18:20:35 Forest2 Well, folks, shall we wrap up?
18:20:41 Melanie Or "we will get it so it doesn't get us"
18:20:43 MorComm Melanie, A guru acts the same part in Mayana Buddhism. It's as old as the hills.
18:20:50 Forest2 I would call this a tremendously successful afternoon.
18:21:04 Melanie Thank you so much everyone.
18:21:14 Forest2 Remember, we are here every week, 3-4, though sometimes we have special events like this one.
18:21:16 annie I would too. Thank you all too. Gotta run.
18:21:37 Forest2 Yes, many thanks to everyone who participated.
18:21:45 MorComm Forest2, Me 3! I guess I'll be signing off now and get back to my bicycling this afternoon. Thanks again Forest. Will be back no doubt!
18:22:06 Forest2 Excellent, MorComm - show no fear!
18:22:20 MorComm So long gang!
18:22:29 Forest2 Later, MorComm!

 

Since the event, a number of people have brought up their interest in working with a therapist which has gotten me thinking a lot about the role of a therapist for someone who wants to overcome PPD.

I find myself of two minds on the issue. Part of me focuses on how, during the call, Alan gave us many concrete tools for how we can be our own therapist. He showed us how to draw our attention away from our logical, analyzing left brain and instead simply be with the emotion in our bodies.

This raises a question: do we need a therapist to help with this or can we do it on our own?

I think that we can make progress in uncovering our emotions and that this is worth doing and incredibly valuable. At the same time, I've been thinking, more and more, that it is also important for us to be humble both about what we can accomplish on our own and with professional help. I know that I, at various times in my life, have felt like I had done enough therapy and journaling to have "figured it all out." But I've learned a tremendous amount since then that I wasn't aware of or open to back then and I can see that right now I'm just at the edge of some new discoveries that I think will really enrich my life. I don't expect this process to ever end and hope it never will.

But part of this involves recognizing that we will probably never reach the "end," where we've gotten everything figured out and where we are 100% aware of everything that our defenses may attempt to hide from us. I mention this because one reason to “go it alone” is that I think that most people feel like they, more or less, have pretty much figured out what is going on in their psyche. I guess I’m trying to say that the reason that some people feel that their TMS is a gift (I’m not lying, some do!) is that it shocks them into reality that there is more going on that they aren’t aware of.

In terms of us not necessarily being able to figure everything out, this may be a good thing, as the defenses are there, in some sense, to defend us. For example, if we are going through too much stress, then trying to be fully present with everything that scares us would turn us into a pool of quivering, depressed jelly. Sometimes we rely on those defense mechanisms to get us through a really tough time, and that may not be a bad thing. When you are in a real crisis like Annie is, sometimes just surviving, keeping things positive and constructive is a triumph. It's not just that it may be all that we can realistically achieve at that stage of our growth and in that situation - in some circumstances, just keeping things together is something to be really proud of (I'm looking at you, Annie )

Getting back to the point of this post, if our bodies are signaling to us that we have unconscious tension, then we may need someone else's help to find that tension.

It seems that there are many ways to achieve the progress that we need. It's like we have many tools in our toolbox. I guess that you get as far as you can with one tool and then try another. In my experience, the metaphor of the multiple layers of skin in an onion is a good metaphor for our process of discovery. One tool (perhaps journaling) may help us get down to one layer, but it may take another (a new book, feedback on a forum, or a therapist) to help us get down to the next.

Bottom line: if you get stuck on one approach, try another!

As for myself, I know I've learned a tremendous amount by helping others, both on this forum and in our chat room. Sometimes I can see so clearly what others are struggling with, even if I can't see the exact same thing going on with me. Then, later on, I think to myself, "wait, I'm a TMSer/PPDer myself. We've got a lot in common and maybe this thing I see in the other person applies to me as well." Then I realize that it does and another layer of the onion begins to slowly peel away...

 

Annie had written some things in another thread and I wanted to take a moment to respond. I'm going to respond here because I think that this is a special thread that, over time, a lot of people will want to read from start to finish.

Well, thank you for participating. It's one of the incredible things about a PPD Peer Network like ours that by sharing our own journeys we help one another. In addition to helping yourself by participating, you were also helping many others who were listening!

I don't know if I have a perfect answer to this... I still haven't had a chance to listen to the whole thing yet (sometimes life just gets busy like that). However, one of the things that I find most interesting in his approach is how he taps into the past to help you win battles with those voices in the present. The "Jody's Brain" picture illustrates this beautifully. Step one is to befriend and develop a strong compassion for the little girl who was originally bullied by your mother. If you develop compassion and love for that little girl then an anger will naturally flow out of that when you see her being abused and you will want to defend her. This will happen both when you imagine her being abused by her mom in the past or when you feel her being abused by your inner bully today.

I think that self-talk can be a powerful technique. My untrained impression is that a great deal of research has demonstrated that approaches related to self-talk (i.e. CBT, etc.) are effective for a variety of problems. However, sometimes it seems like self-talk alone isn't quite enough. We know that those critical inner voices are wrong, but they still hurt us. In situations like this, we can tap into our rage at abuse from our past to summon emotional resources to stand up to the inner bully. By looking at the past, we can see the injustice not just in the past event but also in the pain that our inner bully is inflicting on us now. By feeling anger at the bullies in our past, we more deeply see how the internalized voices of those bullies in our present are fundamentally wrong and not worth our time.

I don't know if this will solve everything, but it certainly seems like a valuable practice.

This reminds me a lot of a passage from The Great Pain Deception. In it, the author, Steven Ozanich, describes his experience with PPD, which is, frankly, breathtaking and even comparable to your own. I don't remember the exact details, but it sounds like he was living with so much pressure and stress for so long that he didn't feel like he had time or space to feel all of his emotions. He had to react and react now, so he began putting on a brave face and intellectualizing things. Rather than asking himself, "what do I feel?" he asked himself, "what do I need to do?" because he didn't have time to feel. (or at least, that's what I took from it)

If someone represses their emotions long enough because they are in survival mode, that must change them. Perhaps it is possible to forget how to feel emotions and become what is called "alexithymic." Alexithymia is just a fancy word that means someone can't speak about/feel their emotions. In terms of latin, it breaks down into a (no) lex (words) i thymia (condition of mind).

Here's a link about alexithymia from "that other wiki:"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexithymia

Ozanich writes,

Later, he describes it as follows:

This reminds me of your situation because it seems like you are living with a constant emergency where you may feel that you just can't afford to feel your emotions on a daily basis. I think about how Alan described how he will stop teaching even if he's in front of a class to allow himself to feel his emotions. How could you possibly do something like that? If you uncorked that bottle, with all of the stresses that you are feeling, you must wonder whether you could possibly get all of that stress and tension back in the bottle in time.

Suppose, like Ozanich, you are forced to save the emotion for another day. When that "another day" never comes, then the repression becomes a habit and I wonder if that habit of repression could turn into alexithymia or "flat affect".

And all of this will be tripled if you must be the one to keep the positive attitude for both of you. How can you possibly feel your feelings if it's always on your shoulders to keep a smile on your face? As you wrote, "Be brave Annie. Don't let on how hard this is!"

It's hard to know what is going on for another person, so I don't claim to have all of the answers. But my gut reaction is that it will take a long time to slowly come to a deeper peace with everything you must be floating around in your unconscious.

I think that Peter Levine might use the term "titration" for finding a safe environment to explore overwhelming emotions and starting with low doses so that you realize that they are safe, then slowly building up so you can handle more and more. The technique of pendulation may help as well, but it's bed time for me, so I might have to write about that another day. Perhaps MorComm or Matthew can weigh in if they stop by...

 

I can't know what is right for you, but my gut says that that might have been exactly what you needed. After reading your last post, I re-listened to the recording and it sounds like you've been taking care of everyone else your whole life. From running your family at age 10, raising your brother as he was finishing high school, or being a caretaker to your husband, it sounds like you've always put others first. I think that you've earned the right to set some time aside to take care of yourself.

One of the things that I liked the most about what Alan said was the emphasis on kindness. As he presented it, kindness means taking the time to honor our emotions. By feeling them in our bodies, we attend to our emotions as one might attend to a crying baby, thereby soothing them.

It sounds like you are taking your time and not rushing this. Don't forget that being kind to yourself also means not pushing yourself into anything that you're not ready for. The highest priority is your safety, and if you feel anything that challenges your internal equilibrium, take some time to ask yourself if you still feel safe and consult a professional (one who can see you in a professional relationship) if you have any doubts. We definitely don't want anything bad to happen to you.

This is one thing that Peter Levine emphasizes in his books about trauma, which he defines, loosely, as overwhelming experience. (For the record, I don't know much about Levine's work, so the following is more my interpretation than an authoritative explanation.) In building up the ability to tolerate overwhelming experiences, he emphasizes the importance of pacing/going slowly (which he calls titration) and creating a feeling of safety. This means having positive triggers at your disposal (which he calls resources), so that if you bring up/trigger something negative, you know from experience that you can return to a more positive place (this is related to what he calls pendulation). Something like a walk outside or anything else that makes you happy would be a good resource.

Your story reminded me of something I had heard about a book called "When the Body Says No," a book that has been on my bookshelf for a couple of weeks but which I haven't had a chance to crack open. Being fairly distractible, I read the first chapter just now. I found that, as its name suggests, one of the major themes of the book is that for goodists and people pleasers who put others' needs ahead of their own and are unable to "say no" to others, sometimes "the body says no" for them. It does this by creating symptoms.

The first chapter opens with a story about Mary, a sensitive woman with an autoimmune condition called scleroderma:

Like I said above, I don't believe we can know what is best for another person, but my gut definitely has a good feeling for you. I have to admit that when I listened to the call the first time, I was worried that you were facing so many challenges that it would take a lot of courage to do the work that Alan suggests. I'm proud of the progress you've been able to make so far. I think that it is a very good thing to take the time that you need to take care of yourself.

And keep listening to that recording! I bet that each time that you listen to it, you'll get more. Perhaps more importantly, it'll help you keep focused on the message.

 

This morning I realized that my last post in this thread might seem to be a bit of a non sequitur because I wasn't just responding to Annie's last post, but to a personal message that she had sent me after the post. We in the peer network need to look out for one another (in a non-intrusive and boundary-respectful way, of course, as we are all our own individuals). As, essentially, the director of our nonprofit, The PPD/TMS Peer Network, it felt right to contact Annie and Ginger after the call to check in with them. It's been great to see how their participation has helped them and to see how they are incorporating what they learned.

One of Alan's main messages in the call was that defending ourselves from our inner bullies and taking the time to honor our emotions by taking the time to attend to them is an important way that we can take care of ourselves. For some, this can be a profoundly self-affirmative process of finally being mindful of our own needs instead of putting everyone else's needs first. No one ever said that change would be easy, but it sounds like yesterday was a great day for Annie in terms of respecting both her own needs and her own emotions.

 

Forest, it was really quite an amazing technological feat, when you think about it. It was a great idea to handle questions and logistics from the regular chat, although there were a couple of disappointed folks who thought we were having regular chat, I was sorry to have to tell them we weren't, but I hope they were able to join the meeting. The Fuze meeting itself worked really well.

And thanks for posting it - I missed a lot of the session itself - just listened to the first half, and found that about 100% of what Alan said to "Annie" was applicable to myself. Maybe more

Jan

 

Glad to hear that, Danielle. I'm only just starting it. How do you like it?